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Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

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Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#91

Post by dragonwriter »

ls612 wrote: post #20
CamperBob2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's a fallacy when dealing with logical entities, but humans aren't logical entities.

It’s only a fallacy when dealing with logical relations under certainty. Once uncertainty and probability is introduced the slippery slope just is relating Bayes’ Rule in plain English.

> It’s only a fallacy when dealing with logical relations under certainty.

Incorrect. Slippery slope is an informal fallacy, which applies to arguments based on evidence not logical relations under certainty. But it is a component of the slippery slope fallacy that the implicit premise (that the precondition that is the subject of the argument is likely to lead to the result that is the endpoint of the slippery slope) is inadequately justified, not merely that a slope from the precondition to the endpoint is presented.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#92

Post by jer0me »

drdaeman wrote: post #87
janci wrote: post #85

Our state-issued eID cards are supposed to have a function that allows anonymous age verification to a trusted party. It should work like this: a requesting party sends a request signed by state-issued certificate to the ID card, the card verifies the request authenticity and responds with a signed confirmation of legal age and that signature then can be verified by the requester. No personal information is shared. W…

Just curious: 1) which country/eID is this? and 2) does it send the date of birth back, or does it perform a zero-knowledge proof that the date of birth is greater or equal than a given value (current date minus age requirement)?

A handful of states, including California, have a digital ID that can do this. It only sends the fact that you’re over a certain age.

There’s a video halfway down this page showing the process in Apple Wallet: https://learn.wallet.apple/id/ (notice “Age Over 21”)

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#93

Post by notatoad »

baby_souffle wrote: post #12
dinkblam wrote: post #3

age verification should be backed into the browser and not into websites. parents should be able to access a (password protected) setting in any browser that can exclude some types of websites (like porn). governments should be free to go after any website not respecting that setting. but forcing the age-verification onto websites is just moronic.

> but forcing the age-verification onto websites is just moronic. Agree. > parents should be able to access a (password protected) setting in any browser that can exclude some types of websites (like porn). How would this work? Who's going to set up the taxonomy / classification tree for every domain/site on the internet just so a guardian can say "yes to drugs, no to porn, no to news, no to weapons..."? Or if that's…

i think it would be reasonable to legally require websites to classify themselves.

if it's illegal to show porn to minors, all a website should have to do to comply with the law is to send a header saying "this is porn" and leave it up to the browser to decide whether or not the human using the browser can see it or not.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#94

Post by drdaeman »

paulvnickerson wrote: post #75

The solution to this is trusted third party age verification services, such as SSL signing authorities, which are baked into browsers.

I don't think so. This is not a technical problem - modern computers simply have no means to know who's sitting in front of them. And even if someone tries to invent some contraption to do so (idk, IR cameras, voice verification, DNA sequencers), I must remind that whoever has physical access can still feed computer any signals. For simpler methods (like a basic face recognition with a webcam to match the ID) spoofing is cheaper than the camera, and more sophisticated methods are extremely costly and full of undesirable side effects.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#95

Post by mschuster91 »

mjevans wrote: post #71

The Internet should be Unrated and thus Adults Only by default. Just like public spaces. (Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended? Arguments can be made for more controlled spaces but...) Have a website and want the chance for kids to see it? Advertise in the headers that it's moderated and intended to be a given rating. Various indexers can pick that up. Complaints can be forward to relevant…

> Would you allow an 8 year old to wander New York City unattended?

At age 8 I was wandering in Munich unattended.

But okay, gotta admit, this is Germany we're talking about, so not many issues with hordes of mentally ill and/or homeless people doing anything from drugs to defecating on the sidewalk right next to big tech's offices [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/18/san-fr...

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#96

Post by choo-t »

ndriscoll wrote: post #82
mjevans wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the ones who make a display of it (get seen by others). We don't randomly go around asking Papers Please! to everyone on the street.

We do require ID to enter e.g. porn stores and bars though, or to make age restricted purchases. I also recall walking a few miles to e.g. the mall, target, walmart, etc. without any adults when I was around 10. I'm not sure I'd characterize public spaces as adult oriented by default.

> We do require ID to enter e.g. porn stores and bars though

Only if you look too young (and for the bars it's only for certain beverages), so the affected population is only a small parts of the customers.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#97

Post by ndriscoll »

evil-olive wrote: post #30
plasma_beam wrote: post #13

Am I missing something here? Entirely possible and likely. When I go to pornhub I have to click a button that days I’m 18. Some other sites I’ve seen actually make me enter a birthdate. Slightly more annoying but I always make one up. Is this what people are upset about? I get actual age verification with an account required or checking my ID is more invasive..but I guess I’ve not experienced this as an actual proble…

your confusion is understandable, because "age verification" can mean anything from "check the box that says you're 18" to "upload a picture of the front and back of your driver's license". > When I go to pornhub I have to click a button that days I’m 18. if you were in Texas, it'd be not reachable at all [0]. this is due to a bill [1] that would have required Pornhub to use the more intrusive age-verification option…

That fine applies if they don't have a system at all, not for scenarios like you posted.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#98

Post by notatoad »

cls59 wrote: post #8
dinkblam wrote: post #3

age verification should be backed into the browser and not into websites. parents should be able to access a (password protected) setting in any browser that can exclude some types of websites (like porn). governments should be free to go after any website not respecting that setting. but forcing the age-verification onto websites is just moronic.

And then kinds just learn how to download and run an open-source browser produced outside of the country that does not implement the setting on the client side.

the point should not be to make it impossible for some people to view certain content. the point should be to make it possible for a parent who controls their child's device to put restrictions on what that device can do - and that might include removing the ability to run unapproved apps.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#99

Post by diebeforei485 »

I have my California Drivers License in my Apple Wallet.

I should be able to prove to iPhone apps that I am 18+ (only a binary yes/no with no metadata) by the apps making a local API call to iOS, which checks this information with the unexpired drivers license on device.

Re: Age Verification Laws: A Backdoor to Surveillance

#100

Post by ysofunny »

mjevans wrote: post #76
paulvnickerson wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we arrest people who have sex in public...

Only the ones who make a display of it (get seen by others). We don't randomly go around asking Papers Please! to everyone on the street.

...not yet... (and I hope, not ever)
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