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Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

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Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#51

Post by csours »

The current rash of airline incidents reminds me of the assembly instruction: Torque fastener until you hear expensive sounds and then back off a quarter turn.

We've accelerated past our capabilities and need to slow down. ATC has incentive to slot takeoffs and landings as close as possible, but that is in tension with the goal of safety.

> Air traffic control from first principles looks significantly more automated.

We have a system 'designed' by history, not by intention. The ATC environment is implemented in the physical world, everyone has to work around physical limitations

Automation works best in controlled environments with limited scope. The more workaround you have to add, the noisier things get, and that's why we use humans to filter the noise by picking important things to say. Humans can physically experience changes in the environment, and our filters are built from our experiences in the physical world.

Anyway, sorry that isn't a question.

Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#53

Post by noahnoahnoah »

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #48

Maybe the future is structured electronic messaging with the humans in the loop. Like, check in with the controller but most messages are sent electronically and acknowledged manually. I have your clearance, advise when ready to copy, then you write everything down on kneeboard with a pencil and then manually put it in the navigation system, is a little archaic. certainly speech to text is a useful transition but in…

This already exists and is used in much of the US and extensively in Europe for airlines. Look up Controller Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC).

Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#54

Post by imadethis »

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #48

Maybe the future is structured electronic messaging with the humans in the loop. Like, check in with the controller but most messages are sent electronically and acknowledged manually. I have your clearance, advise when ready to copy, then you write everything down on kneeboard with a pencil and then manually put it in the navigation system, is a little archaic. certainly speech to text is a useful transition but in…

Look up CPLDC - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_...

This is how big operations handle clearances today, complete with integration into the FMS. The pilot simply reviews the clearance and accepts it.

Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#55

Post by EMM_386 »

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #48

Maybe the future is structured electronic messaging with the humans in the loop. Like, check in with the controller but most messages are sent electronically and acknowledged manually. I have your clearance, advise when ready to copy, then you write everything down on kneeboard with a pencil and then manually put it in the navigation system, is a little archaic. certainly speech to text is a useful transition but in…

> Maybe the future is structured electronic messaging with the humans in the loop.

There already is: Controller Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC).

Get an instruction, press to confirm.

At the moment, this is only used for certain types of things (clearances, frequency changes, speed assignments, etc.) along with voice ATC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_...

Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#56

Post by lxe »

jimnotgym wrote: post #49
lxe wrote: post #47

I was thinking along the same exact lines: Why do we still rely on analog narrowband AM voice over VHF to do vital comms like air traffic control? Same way as we did in the 1940s! We should be transcribing the messages and relaying them digitally with signatures and receipt acknowledgement.

Isn't it because AM audio is still understandable under very suboptimal conditions where digital might not get through? Digital narrowband data modes tend to pass very small amounts of data

Quite the opposite. For short messages digital modes can employ layers of redundancy, auto carrier recovery, error correction at all layers all while yielding lower power requirements, and longer distance.

Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#57

Post by timoth »

TylerE wrote: post #42
kristian1109 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a challenging issue in ATC. Also, some safety systems are turned off or diminished at critical phases of flight (near the ground) because of the noise problem (TCAS, for example). ADS-B helps with this as it's self-reporting. And systems like ASDE-X are useful to track objects once they hit the ground. But low-altitude deconfliction is a big problem.

My understanding is that TCAS is disabled not due to radar limitations, but because it isn't altitude-aware and will happily generate an avoidance command that results in CFIT.

It's been a long time since I worked in flight simulation (full flight simulators and simpler pilot training devices, including simulating TCAS), but I believe at that time TCAS would be switched to a mode in which it only alerts of "Traffic" instead of providing avoidance instructions precisely _when_ entering busier airspace -- e.g. airport proximity. In that environment it was undesirable for TCAS to be giving instructions. That seems like the environment in which Enhanced Radar's (future) product(s) could be of most interest.

(By the way, I believe EGPWS would take priority over TCAS anyway.)

Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#58

Post by DF1PAW »

lxe wrote: post #47

I was thinking along the same exact lines: Why do we still rely on analog narrowband AM voice over VHF to do vital comms like air traffic control? Same way as we did in the 1940s! We should be transcribing the messages and relaying them digitally with signatures and receipt acknowledgement.

AM modulation is perfectly justified in this context: if two (or more) stations accidentally transmit at the same time, this will be noticed. Using FM, only the stronger signal wins and the other signal remains undetected. The advantage over digital transmission is the lack of coding overhead - the voice reaches the receiver without any time delay.

Re: Launch HN: Enhanced Radar (YC W25) – A safety net for air traffic control

#60

Post by kristian1109 »

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #48

Maybe the future is structured electronic messaging with the humans in the loop. Like, check in with the controller but most messages are sent electronically and acknowledged manually. I have your clearance, advise when ready to copy, then you write everything down on kneeboard with a pencil and then manually put it in the navigation system, is a little archaic. certainly speech to text is a useful transition but in…

The problem with datalink systems is they are poor substitutes for immediate control & confirmation. My co-founder Eric wrote a short piece about this: https://www.ericbutton.co/p/speech. This is why they are mainly relegated to low-urgency en-route & clearance delivery.
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