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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#151

Post by cmrdporcupine »

daseiner1 wrote: post #132
inanutshellus wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think. DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes. I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting. ...that said... I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions…

Children of Dune is my favorite thus far (just finished God Emperor … and don’t intend to continue the series). With that being said, Frank Herbert certainly (IMO) is a genius of pure vision and worldbuilding but he is a serviceable writer at best. By the aforementioned fourth book, he no longer has anything to add to his consideration of prescience/fate and is increasingly focused on sexuality. And his writing on se…

The sex stuff is a bit weird and cringe, but they're still great books. I just re-read Heretics again as I'm making my way through the whole series again and frankly in many ways it's the best book of the series if you can get past the weird sex stuff.

There's plenty in there still about prescience.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#152

Post by paulddraper »

robotresearcher wrote: post #131
macartain wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental d…

The personal force-field shield was clever too. Removes bullets from the story, in favor of martial arts.

Force-field was innovative.

Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc.

Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#153

Post by shaunxcode »

corry wrote: post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

"we have prophets at home" : the prophets at home : ketamine and dmt fueled madness

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#154

Post by corry »

ilamont wrote: post #146
corry wrote: post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

> and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic culture Was he really a child of this culture? He was in his 40s by the time Dune came out in 1965, with large parts of it written in the early 60s, when psychadelics seemed more of a fringe thing used in beatnik circles, academic labs and prisons. OTOH, the concept of invaders seizing territory for spice or other unique natural materials (Dutch and Portuguese in the…

I hear you, but I believe he publicly commented on psychedelics and visionary substances and their inspiration for Dune's spice. He studied the natives of North and South America which have many examples of these things.

I don't have a source handy, but can share what Paul Stamets recounted a personal conversation with Frank in his Mycelium Running book as reported on the Dune wikipedia page:

"Frank went on to tell me that much of the premise of Dune—the magic spice (spores) that allowed the bending of space (tripping), the giant sand worms (maggots digesting mushrooms), the eyes of the Freman (the cerulean blue of Psilocybe mushrooms), the mysticism of the female spiritual warriors, the Bene Gesserits (influenced by the tales of Maria Sabina and the sacred mushroom cults of Mexico)—came from his perception of the fungal life cycle, and his imagination was stimulated through his experiences with the use of magic mushrooms."

Totally agree with you on the invaders part. I think this is why Dune is so great, it blends A LOT of things together into a coherent narrative.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#155

Post by paulddraper »

macartain wrote: post #128
corry wrote: post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental d…

> nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..)

They have them.

But there's a moral taboo and a practical MAD one.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#156

Post by llm_trw »

dredmorbius wrote: post #145
llm_trw wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wildest thing about European colonialism is that it was kicked off to get more spices for European food. Then in the worlds most bizarre twist European food gave up all spices a few centuries later and colonies had to invent something else to sell back to the colonial centre.

"All the spices", save for tea, coffee, and sugar, which continued to be imported in quantity. And are addictive to boot. A century or so later, laudenum. The spice trade itself didn't shrink so much as it was subsumed by other trade, I think, particularly as shipping capacity, reliability, and safety increased.

Other than sugar none of those are spices used for food.

And even sugar became much less commonly used to in Europe.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#157

Post by paulddraper »

macartain wrote: post #128
corry wrote: post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental d…

> nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..)

They have them ("atomics"). If bored into the planet, they are powerful enough to split it.

The Great Convention (akin the Geneva convention) prohibited the use of atomics. A convention that...well, no spoilers.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#158

Post by dredmorbius »

llm_trw wrote: post #156
dredmorbius wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All the spices", save for tea, coffee, and sugar, which continued to be imported in quantity. And are addictive to boot. A century or so later, laudenum. The spice trade itself didn't shrink so much as it was subsumed by other trade, I think, particularly as shipping capacity, reliability, and safety increased.

Other than sugar none of those are spices used for food. And even sugar became much less commonly used to in Europe.

My point being that 1) the UK continued to import luxury consumables and 2) probably maintained spice imports, though I don't have hard data.

If you have data to bring to the discussion I'd be interested in seeing it.

Sugar is included in what were termed spices, FWIW:

In the medieval and early modern periods, ‘spice’ was a term liberally applied to all kinds of exotic natural products from pepper to sugar, herbs to animal secretions.

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1777/the-spice-trade--t...>

From the sources I'm finding (relatively few and vague, granted), my interpretation is less that total trade in spices (however construed) fell in absolute tonnage than that the per-tonne value dropped as the goods fell in price and were consumed by far greater shares of the population. It wasn't that spices were less a part of culinary culture, but that because they were so common (both senses of the word) they became less significant. Total tonnage and likely overall value were all but certainly increasing, but the importance attached to formerly exotic goods (pepper, ginger, cinnamon, etc.) fell as anybody could attain these.

Look to the history of the pineapple (of which there were once temples built in its honor in Europe) from exotic to highly mundane fruit for another example:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-53432877>

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#159

Post by KineticLensman »

paulddraper wrote: post #152
robotresearcher wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The personal force-field shield was clever too. Removes bullets from the story, in favor of martial arts.

Force-field was innovative. Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

> Force-field was innovative.

Yes, although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights. It would also seem that mankind lost the ancient secrets of body armour.

> Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

There was even one Dr Who episode where the Daleks replaced their beam weapons with machine guns [0]. Although only because there was some sort of 'unknown force' that disrupted the guns without affecting the other Dalek systems.

[0] https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Death_to_the_Daleks_(TV_story...

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#160

Post by ericol »

macartain wrote: post #128
corry wrote: post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental d…

> and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..)

If I recall correctly, they are banned from use on people because that's how the machines tried to annihilate mankind (it's been a while..)

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