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How the U.K. broke its own economy

theatlantic.com

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Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#21

Post by robertlagrant »

Aromasin wrote: post #12
reverendsteveii wrote: post #4

Everyone who bought into neoliberalism in the 80s is now experiencing economies that are mysteriously failing to thrive. Correlation isn't cause, except when it is.

Turns out Thatcherism only works as long as the state still has assets to sell off. The delusion that assets would stay in the hands of the working and middle class, and not end up with the wealthy inheriting class, has to be one of the biggest political failures of our government on the modern era. It's lead to the possible death of the Conservative Party if they fail to fight off Reform and the Liberal Democrats.

You're surely joking. The IMF isn't bailing out the UK, and there aren't 3 day week debates because of the failing power supply. What's led to the death of the Conservative party is them doing exactly the opposite what a lot of Conservative voters want: bigger economy, and slower immigration.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#22

Post by bojan »

robertlagrant wrote: post #21
Aromasin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out Thatcherism only works as long as the state still has assets to sell off. The delusion that assets would stay in the hands of the working and middle class, and not end up with the wealthy inheriting class, has to be one of the biggest political failures of our government on the modern era. It's lead to the possible death of the Conservative Party if they fail to fight off Reform and the Liberal Democrats.

You're surely joking. The IMF isn't bailing out the UK, and there aren't 3 day week debates because of the failing power supply. What's led to the death of the Conservative party is them doing exactly the opposite what a lot of Conservative voters want: bigger economy, and slower immigration.

Didn't they get more independence with Brexit?

Regarding the immigration, sure, the Conservative voters maybe want less of it, but rich and influential Tories actually like immigration as it allows their businesses to thrive (even more). The UK has more capital going around than her own people.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#23

Post by bojan »

pipes wrote: post #9
reverendsteveii wrote: post #4

Everyone who bought into neoliberalism in the 80s is now experiencing economies that are mysteriously failing to thrive. Correlation isn't cause, except when it is.

So what was the alternative? Continue with the disaster of central planning. Which is the actual thing that destroyed British industry.

I have a lot of issues with the work of Yanis Varoufakis, but he has one idea that I'd like to see tried out - and that is that the workers own 10% of their companies, obviously getting 10% of the profit, etc. At least in Europe it's uncommon to get shares as part of the compensation package, so I'm curious how the Varoufakis' idea would end up working. It's worth giving it a shot.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#24

Post by mattlondon »

bojan wrote: post #22
robertlagrant wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're surely joking. The IMF isn't bailing out the UK, and there aren't 3 day week debates because of the failing power supply. What's led to the death of the Conservative party is them doing exactly the opposite what a lot of Conservative voters want: bigger economy, and slower immigration.

Didn't they get more independence with Brexit? Regarding the immigration, sure, the Conservative voters maybe want less of it, but rich and influential Tories actually like immigration as it allows their businesses to thrive (even more). The UK has more capital going around than her own people.

Legal immigrants from the EU were not the only source of migrants to the UK. Many come from elsewhere, legally and otherwise. Guess what: we have Brexit but we still have immigrants - impossible?!

Plus it was never about immigration, it was always - I think - a classic case of misinformation and greed from many places. Sadly many people fell for it.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#26

Post by david-gpu »

datavirtue wrote: post #19
aftbit wrote: post #5

Aren't higher energy prices exactly what we need to combat climate change though?

Energy costs should probably be progressive. If you need more than the poor your cost starts shooting through the roof. This reminds me of that popular "reality" show where they remodel a family's home and surprise them with what is basically a palace. Afterward the families are shattered by energy costs, and eventually exorbitant property taxes. Off camera they are forced into forclosure and end up in debt. After th…

A carbon dividend solves that problem. Put a price on each ton of carbon released in the atmosphere, then redistribute an equal dividend to each citizen.

The wealthiest people will end up paying more than they receive back, while the poorest will receive a boost. All while incentivizing low carbon alternatives in every sector of the economy.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#27

Post by mattlondon »

aftbit wrote: post #5

Aren't higher energy prices exactly what we need to combat climate change though?

It's higher energy prices yes, but that means higher everything prices. Even if your energy tariff is a 100% renewable one you still pay the dirty gas price because of the way the market is set up.

Combine that with high costs of housing (both to purchase but also to rent) and people are, generally speaking, fucked and living paycheck to paycheck. Renters especially live a precarious life where prices regularly go up 10% per year and you might be legally told to leave with not much more than a month's notice leading to much upheaval and associated costs.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#28

Post by rawgabbit »

robertlagrant wrote: post #20
_aavaa_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. We need polluting energy sources to be charged for their pollution, ie stop using the atmosphere and land as a free sewer, which in turn will put renewables on an equal footing. Though even without that, solar, wind, and batteries are already cheaper.

Isn't that the same? You want to raise the price of energy to make wind etc competitive?

Sound bites drives political discussion.

When a polluting industry poisons the air and the water and people go to the hospital because they are coughing or they have dysentery, who will pay to cleanup the mess? If you frame the discussion as about “price” it is a non-starter.

I would argue it is better to talk about workers and their families. As in let us not shit in the river so our children don’t get sick and can go to school. Let us not poison the air so workers can do their jobs and not go to hospital.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#29

Post by EndShell »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #15
SmartyPants700 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Because climate change will somehow not effect the poor? 1) we need hire energy prices to match the externalities 2) we need subsidies to make the poor more efficient at using the power they can afford. I heard in England they don't have proper insulation in most homes. Building to passive house standards can completely transform an energy bill.

> we need subsidies to make the poor more efficient at using the power they can afford.

They already have grants and subsidies that people can apply for.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/find-energy-grants...

> I heard in England they don't have proper insulation in most homes.

Almost every house and apartment I've lived in had had some sort of insulation and double/triple glazing fitted on the windows. So I found this quite hard to believe so I looked it up.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7c19d040f0b...

Official stats from 12 years ago say that ~70% of properties do have cavity wall and loft insulation as of 2013.

> Building to passive house standards can completely transform an energy bill.

They are plenty of regulations on how new houses are built on how energy efficient they are. However we cannot build enough housing for a number of numerous reasons to meet current demand.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#30

Post by tick_tock_tick »

sjducb wrote: post #10
pipes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what was the alternative? Continue with the disaster of central planning. Which is the actual thing that destroyed British industry.

Go back to what the western world was doing in the 50’s. High tax and high public spending. In 1950 the US had a top marginal tax rate of 91%. The 50s were great, let’s do that again. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/04/26/taxing...

I mean I think most billionaires would welcome the 1950s tax code. The reduction in their bills would be amazing! The only people paying those number would be our new "middle" class doctors, lawyers, etc people who make a lot of income but limited investments.
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