Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting • Hacker News Board

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#151

Post by floppydisk » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:30 PM UTC

wildmXranat wrote: post #118

Dystopian wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should also mean though that cross-posting to other sites like Kijiji (very common) could result in having take-down notices sent for your ad (- since it's an exclusive license you're granting them). [IANAL]

No it isn't. The information that is used to build the ad remains open to be used wherever and whenever the poster wants. I believe this storm is caused by third parties leeching off their ads and not users posting the ad in multiple places. Let's not get too dramatic about it.

Correct, the information remains open--however, how many people are going to go about writing a new ad for each site they post on and make sure it's different enough to avoid triggering someone else's license protection? Reading real estate ads in the area, both on realty websites and Craigslist, they look almost identical.

"BRAND NEW CONDO 1BA 1Br wood floors!!!! sends us an email. $1200/mo!!"

If you take that same ad and post it on Craigslist and another ad service, the license with Craigslist gives them exclusive rights to the ad--if I'm reading this right it means they can then tell the 2nd ad service to take the content down since CL has the exclusive license. I'm not saying CL will do this, just that having that kind of license up front opens the door to such a scenario.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#152

Post by kevinpet » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:34 PM UTC

smspence wrote: post #126

archangel_one wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She doesn't think she does, but if she lists that couch on ebay as well she is technically in breach of craigslist's terms of service, and if they decide to enforce it then she is going to be forced to care. Not that I expect them to actually try to enforce it in that way, of course.

"...if she lists that couch on ebay as well she is technically in breach of craigslist's terms of service." No, I do not think that has anything to do with the new craiglist terms of service. The new terms of service just prevents other people from copying the content of the craigslist ad. So, no the hypothetical woman selling the couch would not be affected by the new terms in any way.

No, the new terms of service may be intended to prevent other people from copying content, but what matters is what's written in the contract, not what the press release says. What the terms of service actually do is grant Craigslist the same license an author grants a publisher -- you can't grant Random House exclusive rights, then turn around and self-publish electronically.

You may be happy to rely on vague "oh, we don't actually enforce that clause" but some of us prefer not to sign away rights for nothing.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#153

Post by gwillen » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:37 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #148

paulgb wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You speak as though CL is broken, and it clearly isn't, as a marketplace it functions well. I'm guessing you've never had to find an apartment on Craigslist. Sifting through spam, scams, fake listings by agents, listings that have already been sold... sure, you can do it, but it's not efficient.

Depends on the market - I understand the incentives in new york are such that scamming by agents is common, and problematic. In the Bay Area, (indeed, all of california to the best of my knowledge) - it's rare (as in, I've never heard of it happening) for a renter to pay a fee for a new rental, and so there is very little incentive to scam them. I've moved five times since 2003, every time using craigslist. If I want…

Sorry, what's your claimed difference between padmapper and housingmaps?

As far as I can tell by looking at housingmaps, it's identical to padmapper, which tells me it's going to be shut down soon.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#154

Post by ralfn » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:40 PM UTC

zopa wrote: post #72

ralfn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, consumer organisations here in Holland once took 25 EULA's to a judge. Less than 1% of what was stated would ever be held up in a dutch court. Things like the concept that a company can just define their liabilty themselves. Or how they have the right to share personal data with 3rd parties. The laws can not overwritten with contracts, esspecially ones without signatures. In essence, and this was quite fu…

> Im not sure about the situation in the US. But the same > should be true to some extend. My understanding is that it's not true to much of any extent in the US. The contract will generally win. It'll depend on the jurisdiction and the case, but it's certainly not the case that all EULAs are per se invalid. Nor is it the case that "the laws cannot be overwritten with contracts." Overwriting the legal default rules i…

Only if those legal "default" rules, are specified as "default"

A good example is rape. It does not make sex illegal, it just makes consent a requirement. There is no analogue for murder, so event consent would not allow murder.

Thats the extend of such liscences: they can ask consent for things that require consent. But most of them are filled with stuff that either does not require consent, or where consent is irrelevent.

But when i hear about the type of frivolent lawsuits, i do believe at least liability is defined very differently. Here companies are not liable for misuse by idiots. If an average person understands you can not microwave your cat, then there is no liability when an idiot does that. On the other hand, companies can not distance themselves from being liable for harm due to defects.

Either case, legal terms are not very relevant either way. Because they do not constitute a proper effort of informing. That last part is very relevant. Implicit terms can not define the context, only try to formalize it.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#155

Post by IanDrake » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:45 PM UTC

jeremymims wrote: post #103

crazygringo wrote: post #81

I'm always fascinated when companies make that one decision which seems to lead to their downfall -- and everyone seems to be able to see it, except the company itself. I think this is a great thing -- if Craigslist can get enough bad press from this, then maybe a movement for "free and copyable" classifieds listings can take place, and there can be competition in the space again.

Craigslist could: - kill Padmapper instantly by building a map function to view their listings. - elect not to build a map feature because they think it's trivial and they believe no one cares. So Padmapper should languish. - buy Padmapper for a little bit of money and have Eric help make their product better. - hire Eric to make their product better. - invest a little money into Padmapper as a hedge and hope it does…

Bingo!

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#156

Post by gergles » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:45 PM UTC

Zimahl wrote: post #149

nathan_long wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The new terms of service just prevents other people from copying the content of the craigslist ad. Um... >> the exclusive right to enforce copyrights against anyone copying, republishing, distributing or preparing derivative works without its consent Where does it say anything about "other people?" I mean, I doubt Craigslist would sue an actual user for posting on EBay, but they might send EBay a takedown notice f…

And if I wrote a piece of software that helped you post the same thing simultaneously on Craigslist and EBay, I bet they'd sue me. That's not what this is about. CL doesn't care where you post it, or how many times you post it. CL just doesn't want others scraping their website and posting it for you. This is direct action on CL against Padmapper.

That's great and grand that you've decided that's what they mean. That's not what the forced license grant actually says.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#157

Post by paulgb » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:48 PM UTC

vampirechicken wrote: post #141

paulgb wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You speak as though CL is broken, and it clearly isn't, as a marketplace it functions well. I'm guessing you've never had to find an apartment on Craigslist. Sifting through spam, scams, fake listings by agents, listings that have already been sold... sure, you can do it, but it's not efficient.

Clearly people are still finding value on CL. Hacker News readers are in a demographic that views the internet and the web VERY differently from how people who do not create internet services for a living view them. We care about a completely other set of factors then they do. We don't bookmark facebook.com we rely on the browser history, having typed it in to the address bar once. They use google to search for the l…

Building a community takes work, but so does building a better UI. Both should be rewarded in the market, but because of network effects, the former is rewarded disproportionately.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#158

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:49 PM UTC

vampirechicken wrote: post #141

paulgb wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You speak as though CL is broken, and it clearly isn't, as a marketplace it functions well. I'm guessing you've never had to find an apartment on Craigslist. Sifting through spam, scams, fake listings by agents, listings that have already been sold... sure, you can do it, but it's not efficient.

Clearly people are still finding value on CL. Hacker News readers are in a demographic that views the internet and the web VERY differently from how people who do not create internet services for a living view them. We care about a completely other set of factors then they do. We don't bookmark facebook.com we rely on the browser history, having typed it in to the address bar once. They use google to search for the l…

[deleted]

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#159

Post by jonny_eh » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:49 PM UTC

Zimahl wrote: post #149

nathan_long wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The new terms of service just prevents other people from copying the content of the craigslist ad. Um... >> the exclusive right to enforce copyrights against anyone copying, republishing, distributing or preparing derivative works without its consent Where does it say anything about "other people?" I mean, I doubt Craigslist would sue an actual user for posting on EBay, but they might send EBay a takedown notice f…

And if I wrote a piece of software that helped you post the same thing simultaneously on Craigslist and EBay, I bet they'd sue me. That's not what this is about. CL doesn't care where you post it, or how many times you post it. CL just doesn't want others scraping their website and posting it for you. This is direct action on CL against Padmapper.

How will CL know that an identical ad on CL and another site wasn't scraped, but just double posted by the author? Do you really think CL is just going to politely ask?

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#160

Post by owenjones » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 4:49 PM UTC

vampirechicken wrote: post #141

paulgb wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You speak as though CL is broken, and it clearly isn't, as a marketplace it functions well. I'm guessing you've never had to find an apartment on Craigslist. Sifting through spam, scams, fake listings by agents, listings that have already been sold... sure, you can do it, but it's not efficient.

Clearly people are still finding value on CL. Hacker News readers are in a demographic that views the internet and the web VERY differently from how people who do not create internet services for a living view them. We care about a completely other set of factors then they do. We don't bookmark facebook.com we rely on the browser history, having typed it in to the address bar once. They use google to search for the l…

To me, the word community connotes a separate entity that you interact with in some way, usually due to proximity. You might define the Craigslist Community as only people visiting craiglist.com but to me it would imply sites such as Padmapper that extend and improve Craigslist data. They are symbiotic and support the same community of users, Padmapper is not "repackaging" Craigslist like some sort of parasite like you imply.

Anecdotally, whenever I've used Padmapper to find a new apartment I would end up on craiglist.com anyway as Padmapper would often not contain the real estate agent's contact information.