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How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

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Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#21

Post by pwny »

jmduke wrote: post #9
debacle wrote: post #4

Why is it so important that we close the gender gap? Why is it so important that we believe that there is no difference in intelligence between men and women? Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the m…

Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the most intelligent woman. No. This means that there are likely to be more men who scored highly on an IQ test than women who scored highly on an IQ test in a room…

"The only thing an IQ test is good at is measuring how close the test taker is to thinking the same way the test maker does."

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#22

Post by Evbn »

flatline wrote: post #17
droithomme wrote: post #3

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

The biggest complaint that I've heard from female engineers who have been around for more than a couple years is that there are so few of them, and that it is such a male-dominated industry. I can't speak for them, but I have my own complaints on this front, as a guy. Overlooking the specific gender biases that women face, there are real differences between how men and women work and interact, and I find it rather te…

The only people I have ever seen use the terms rock star or ninja are women in HR/Recruiting.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#23

Post by debacle »

jmduke wrote: post #9
debacle wrote: post #4

Why is it so important that we close the gender gap? Why is it so important that we believe that there is no difference in intelligence between men and women? Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the m…

Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the most intelligent woman. No. This means that there are likely to be more men who scored highly on an IQ test than women who scored highly on an IQ test in a room…

I still would call that relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_perfo...

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#24

Post by CJefferson »

droithomme wrote: post #3

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

I met plenty of women programmers who are good at their jobs who have made this kind of argument. Many have left computing.

What is different about the women you have met, and I have met, I'm not sure. But I can tell you many such women exist.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#25

Post by pwny »

borplk wrote: post #18

What bugs me is the fact that no one is complaining about low presence of men in female-dominated industries. But god forbid if there are 10 male programmers and 9 female ones, DISASTER!

While there's still a lot of stigma about men in some women related fields (ask male nurses), the issue in software is of larger scale than you imply.

Try 1 female for 40 male programmers (That's about the ratio in both my internships, as well as my Software Engineering bachelor's degree group) and add to that the wannabe cool guys making sexist jokes in their public announcements and you might be closer to the current situation.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#26

Post by debacle »

space_unicorn wrote: post #10
debacle wrote: post #4

Why is it so important that we close the gender gap? Why is it so important that we believe that there is no difference in intelligence between men and women? Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the m…

I think women are just as intelligent as men. I also think that men's and women's intelligence manifests itself in different ways. It is explicitly because of this difference, that I believe having more women in STEM fields can only be a good thing. Advances come when a problem is approached from many different angles, by many different bright minds. Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype. I feel sad for your daughte…

I never said having more women in STEM would be a bad thing - having more people in STEM will always be a good thing, all things considered.

However your opinion that women are just as intelligent as men is not backed up by any statistics, and one of the best statistics we have for assessing intelligence, IQ, does not jive with your assertion.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#27

Post by pwny »

debacle wrote: post #26
space_unicorn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think women are just as intelligent as men. I also think that men's and women's intelligence manifests itself in different ways. It is explicitly because of this difference, that I believe having more women in STEM fields can only be a good thing. Advances come when a problem is approached from many different angles, by many different bright minds. Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype. I feel sad for your daughte…

I never said having more women in STEM would be a bad thing - having more people in STEM will always be a good thing, all things considered. However your opinion that women are just as intelligent as men is not backed up by any statistics, and one of the best statistics we have for assessing intelligence, IQ, does not jive with your assertion.

Please do show us statistics though. I'm not saying you're wrong (I genuinely don't know) but you can't say other people don't have data to back their claims when you don't put any data forward yourself. Especially since you brought up the (controversial) argument, the burden of proof is on you.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#28

Post by space_unicorn »

pwny wrote: post #20
space_unicorn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has nothing to do with harassment. As a female in the software industry, I have experienced harassment perhaps once, and it wasn't from my colleagues. Stereotype threat can occur even at 'sane firms'. It has to do with a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting.

While you make a point that it doesn't always have to do with harassment, your second argument is very weak. There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting." If your issue lies with what other people MIGHT be thinking, then the issue is within your own self-confidence. I agree that stereotypes are destructive, b…

There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting."

Agreed. On the other hand, for a person thinking negatively about himself or herself, the absence of feedback will often be interpreted as negative feedback.

Being nice to our colleagues (male or female or other minority group) and giving positive feedback when it's appropriate tends to increase a team's overall morale and productivity.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#29

Post by debacle »

pwny wrote: post #27
debacle wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said having more women in STEM would be a bad thing - having more people in STEM will always be a good thing, all things considered. However your opinion that women are just as intelligent as men is not backed up by any statistics, and one of the best statistics we have for assessing intelligence, IQ, does not jive with your assertion.

Please do show us statistics though. I'm not saying you're wrong (I genuinely don't know) but you can't say other people don't have data to back their claims when you don't put any data forward yourself. Especially since you brought up the (controversial) argument, the burden of proof is on you.

Actually, since this is an Internet forum, the burden of proof is on neither of us and you may be taking things just a bit too seriously.

But if you can't be arsed to Google it, here you are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#30

Post by pwny »

space_unicorn wrote: post #28
pwny wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you make a point that it doesn't always have to do with harassment, your second argument is very weak. There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting." If your issue lies with what other people MIGHT be thinking, then the issue is within your own self-confidence. I agree that stereotypes are destructive, b…

There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting." Agreed. On the other hand, for a person thinking negatively about himself or herself, the absence of feedback will often be interpreted as negative feedback. Being nice to our colleagues (male or female or other minority group) and giving positive feedback when it…

Absolutely. On a related note, we seem to be a lot better and consistent at giving negative feedback. Encouraging positive feedback and giving more of it to young people as they grow up would probably go a long way.
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