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Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

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Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#81

Privatization is what a lot of people believe is the answer, thinking that there is so much waste and useless things the Federal government does. These people must have never worked at a large corporation. I have a relative in the federal government and we would share stories because the dysfunctions are basically the same. Any large organization of humans working uses a pyramid organization since like the middle age…

My experience as a consultant with both (local) administrations (in Germany) and much larger corporations is that the corporations weren't even close to being as dysfunctional. I'm certain there are great parts of government, but I've never experienced it, and all I'm hearing from friends who work at the federal level is that it's no different there.

Germany ain't the US.

Organizational culture in one might be different than the other.

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#82

Privatization is what a lot of people believe is the answer, thinking that there is so much waste and useless things the Federal government does. These people must have never worked at a large corporation. I have a relative in the federal government and we would share stories because the dysfunctions are basically the same. Any large organization of humans working uses a pyramid organization since like the middle age…

I agree that large organizations work similarly in government and business.

The difference is that large businesses constantly competed by other businesses. This either keeps them effective enough to compete, or they get replaced with more functional ones.

The accumulated dysfunction in a 20-50 year old company is large, but on a whole different scale than a 250 year old government.

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#83
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way you combat the creep of bureaucratic miasma is by regularly turning a critical eye inward It certainly can’t hurt. Alas for the current moment, but it seems the eye we’re turning inward is as far from “critical” as can be.

I keep seeing this argument. Can you help me understand what parts are serving a hidden agenda?

Who said anything about a hidden agenda? Can you consider that the current efforts are outright foolish?

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you see as waste from outside might be the most efficient system possible given the consequences and tons of time it had for evolving. These systems contain huge icebergs of knowledge gained, refined and organized over time. Rooting them like weeds which grow in three days flat is a huge mistake.

Well, let’s find that with DOGE. DOGE had already revealed things that are so unnecessary for a government to do. Humans can do much better governance than what we do now.

> let’s find that with DOGE.

I think this whole logic of letting an unproven entity come in and destroy a working system to just “find out” if it works is negligent and malicious.

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#85
post #61

Privatization is what a lot of people believe is the answer, thinking that there is so much waste and useless things the Federal government does. These people must have never worked at a large corporation. I have a relative in the federal government and we would share stories because the dysfunctions are basically the same. Any large organization of humans working uses a pyramid organization since like the middle age…

It’s very easy. Waste in private organisations costs the owners money and the organisation disappears when the money runs out. Waste in public organisations costs all of us, including me, money, and the organisation never disappears, if anything, it keeps growing and consuming more money forever. If Mark Cuban wants to spend his money on this I don’t see the issue. It’s his to waste.

This is incredibly simplified Econ 101 style thinking though, it is nowhere near that simple and our markets are often incredibly inefficient.

It's also not true that the organization never disappears. The government functions across all sorts of areas, and departments change or are eliminated all the time.

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#86

Privatization is what a lot of people believe is the answer, thinking that there is so much waste and useless things the Federal government does. These people must have never worked at a large corporation. I have a relative in the federal government and we would share stories because the dysfunctions are basically the same. Any large organization of humans working uses a pyramid organization since like the middle age…

There is at the root here an ideological presupposition that profit (and competition) is the only real motivation that produces quality or efficiency. Community service as a motivation is actually extremely strong, but becoming more and more invisible in public discourse. With expected results. Which is strange from a nation that is constantly proclaiming its "Christian" foundations? I have many friends (and a spouse…

They shouldn’t be taking pay cuts, for one. The government should be paying competitively and fairly.

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#87
post #17

This is exactly what the people who shut down 18F want: a shrunken government reliant on private contractors for basic service needs. There’s a famous Reagan quote that the nine most terrifying words are “I’m from the government and I’m here to help”. That soundbite influenced a generation of small-government conservatives who ignored the big qualifier that followed — he was actually announcing more government suppor…

The more relevant quote is Grover Norquist: shrinking government “down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub”

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#89
post #15

18f has(d) really smart people. who gave up higher wages in the private sector to serve the public. then idiots like musk come along. damage from musk n co will be monumental in the years to come.

It's generally a myth that government employees are somehow receiving low total compensation and they could do better in the real economy. Here's one government employees providing stats and experiences about what it is like to work for the government: https://www.betonit.ai/p/the-joy-of-government-employment

Well, that post you link to has assertions but no data to back it up.

Not sure what you think this shows?

Re: Mark Cuban offers to fund former 18F employees

#90

Privatization is what a lot of people believe is the answer, thinking that there is so much waste and useless things the Federal government does. These people must have never worked at a large corporation. I have a relative in the federal government and we would share stories because the dysfunctions are basically the same. Any large organization of humans working uses a pyramid organization since like the middle age…

Yes, this exactly. Reflexive "ugh govt" is a result of decades of Reagan-ite propaganda. Govt is just people, and people are flawed and have competing incentives. I've worked in massive companies that have incredibly dumb inefficiencies.

Reagan or not, what you can see clearly in the comments here and many other places is that what would be considered fairly extreme libertarian talking points have become common parlance these days. Taxation as "theft", the necessity of the threat of termination and other economic deprivation in order to coerce people to doing good work, the assumption that profit inevitably produces more efficiency, and that efficiency (as defined monetarily) is the ultimate goal.

These are defensible positions based on various world views, but they should not be accepted automatically. But I see here and other places people speaking as if this is just "obvious fact."

This was not the case in the past. Civic duty, the need for a functioning civil service, the notion of a commonwealth and/or social contract, etc are all foundational notions coming out of the enlightenment and were at least formerly mainstream.

The Ayn Rand types have always been around. And they're welcome to their positions. I'm concerned about how we get here now that this is a default position for people to take in North American society. I certainly don't agree with it. And I suspect if you force the majority of "mainstream" people to go through the arguments piece by piece, they wouldn't either.

I'd also argue that decades of corroding the public service's effectiveness through economic and ideological warfare has in fact made the public service look like exactly the thing its enemies claim it is. If you make the civil sector into a partisan battle, and play games with its funding, and spread cynicism about its motives... surprise you're going to get a partisan, inefficient, and cynical public service.

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