Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

blog.mozilla.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 381 posts

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#351

Post by mmooss »

koolala wrote: post #221
mmooss wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the parent, all the collected data preserves privacy: > Firefox also shows its own search suggestions based on information stored on your local device That data stays on your computer ... > Mozilla processes [...] how many searches you perform, how many sponsored suggestions you see and whether you interact with them. That description contains no user content: number of searches, number of ads, whether you i…

I wish this was more obvious that they don't identify what the 'clicked' New Tab content is. And for Search it could be stored local information and be tracked for suggestions. I wish they clarified the things you clarified instead of failing to mention them.

I think that's a great point. I think organizations are careful not to interpret carefully worded legal prose, to avoid undermining the legal position. But that limits understanding of these things to lawyers who can interpret the legal prose.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#352

Post by mmooss »

the_other wrote: post #188
mmooss wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the parent, all the collected data preserves privacy: > Firefox also shows its own search suggestions based on information stored on your local device That data stays on your computer ... > Mozilla processes [...] how many searches you perform, how many sponsored suggestions you see and whether you interact with them. That description contains no user content: number of searches, number of ads, whether you i…

How do they decide which sponsored ad to show you?

It's a great question, and that is the tech Mozilla / Firefox have been working on and using for years.

Advertising is, unfortunately, necessary to funding most of the web, and targeting is necessary to advertising. As a result, users are surveiled and tracked heavily.

But imagine if the targeting could be done without surveillance and tracking - then users could largely use the web in private. It would be revolutionary. That's what Firefox has figured out and is investing more in:

https://www.adexchanger.com/privacy/mozilla-acquires-anonym-...

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#353

Post by mmooss »

mort96 wrote: post #193
mmooss wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you asked some random selection of technical people, "hey if Mozilla just went ahead and made a ToS which gives Mozilla a broad license to anything you enter into Firefox, then removed the text 'Mozilla won't sell your data' from their FAQ pages, how would people react?" I think 99.9% of people would've predicted that the reaction would be negative. These things aren't as impossible to anticipate as you pretend. T…

> "hey if Mozilla just went ahead and made a ToS which gives Mozilla a broad license to anything you enter into Firefox, then removed the text 'Mozilla won't sell your data' from their FAQ pages

But that's not what happened; that's the piling on. Mozilla says they will can use the data to do things that you request them to do.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#354

Post by mmooss »

wtallis wrote: post #189
mmooss wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a lot of tracking data It's meaningless data to you: It doesn't say what you click on, just where and how big the ads are, and how many times you click. It doesn't identify you or reveal anything about you, except that you clicked on some unknown ads. > It's also silly to suggest that targeting advertising without tracking users needs to be "pioneered". It's obvious that Mozilla could have the browser downl…

> It's meaningless data to you: It doesn't say what you click on, just where and how big the ads are, and how many times you click. It doesn't identify you or reveal anything about you, except that you clicked on some unknown ads. I'm not sure what you mean by "meaningless data to you ". Obviously, the data Mozilla is collecting, aggregating, and selling is meaningful to the buyers. And you're straight up lying about…

> you're straight up lying

You are going too far in your 'pile on Mozilla' performance.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#355

Post by mmooss »

lightedman wrote: post #268
mmooss wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you and they agree on the meaning of collect: If you input personal data into Firefox - e.g., an email you type in a Gmail - then they 'collect' it. Unless you use Firefox only for anonymous purposes, some data must pass through Firefox. > With Mozilla, for example, displaying sponsored links using Firefox Suggest ( https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-news/fi ... ) means collecting and s…

"That article says it's only opt-in, so you are safe:" Funny, I never opt-in to that garbage - and yet Firefox keeps trying to auto-recommend things to me. It does this even in the Firefox Quantum mobile browser. I don't think Mozilla is being 100% honest.

> Firefox keeps trying to auto-recommend things to me

If it's what I'm thinking, they do it without data about you ever leaving your computer. Look up how it's done - it's game-changing tech for privacy.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#356

Post by mmooss »

koolala wrote: post #218
mmooss wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it say your search history could be sold? They say they will use your data only to do things you request - probably you aren't requesting that.

"there are a number of places where we collect and share data with our partners, including our optional ads on New Tab and providing sponsored suggestions in the search bar" These are the places they say they sell user data to be commercialy viable. Search history data is the most valuable data they could steal. Selling it for suggestions turns giving it away to companies into a feature. You can turn off 'showing' th…

> "there are a number of places where we collect and share data with our partners, including our optional ads on New Tab and providing sponsored suggestions in the search bar"

That doesn't say search history is sold. And elsewhere they say the provide sponsored suggestions without any data leaving your computer.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#357

Post by mmooss »

solardev wrote: post #191
mmooss wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you quote where it says that?

Sure. It's the part right after the horizontal rule line. > The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” [is the transfer] of a consumer’s personal information [from one business to another in exchange for something of value]. > [...] > In order to make Firefox commercially viable, there are a number of places…

> Firefox is just a privacy laundering operation for Google

Firefox does nothing else? Mozilla does nothing else? You're going way too far, and by joining the mob and piling on, you're going to destroy all those other very valuable things that Mozilla and Firefox do.

This isn't serious analysis, it's just 'I have my pitchfork and torch; let's burn it all down!'.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#358

Post by zecg »

brookst wrote: post #267
ttpphd wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Why is my browser serving me advertising in the first place? Because Mozilla is an advertising company now.

There are only two ways to generate revenue: direct and indirect. Nobody will pay for a browser. I don’t use Firefox and this whole thing is distasteful, but I’m not sure how they’re supposed to cover operating expenses without indirect monetization, or what for of indirect other than ads would work.

> Nobody will pay for a browser.

I would, if they offered a payment-only access to Firefox with no added services and no telemetry whatsoever. I'd pay 50€ a year for that.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#359

Post by solardev »

mmooss wrote: post #357
solardev wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. It's the part right after the horizontal rule line. > The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” [is the transfer] of a consumer’s personal information [from one business to another in exchange for something of value]. > [...] > In order to make Firefox commercially viable, there are a number of places…

> Firefox is just a privacy laundering operation for Google Firefox does nothing else? Mozilla does nothing else? You're going way too far, and by joining the mob and piling on, you're going to destroy all those other very valuable things that Mozilla and Firefox do. This isn't serious analysis, it's just 'I have my pitchfork and torch; let's burn it all down!'.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Firefox is worse today than it was 15 years ago, and it's because Mozilla pivoted into some sort of failed think tank rather than a browser maker.

It's not pitchforking, it's a legitimate frustration towards the tragic downfall of my once favorite browser. I grew up with Firefox and I'm really sad about what it's become.

As a user, I'm sick of all the spam and advertising and bundled crapware. Every time I launch it or god forbid download it on a new machine, I'm bombarded with a dozen pop-ups for things I don't want, like whatever the hell Pocket is or a dozen new tab ads. Somehow Chrome, from the world's largest advertising company, still manages to be way less spammy.

As a frontend dev, it's been a decade since I've had to resolve any major differences between Webkit and Blink, or Safari and Chrome. But every year, multiple issues with Firefox arise, usually related to graphics performance. Multiple teams and companies I've worked at have deprecated Firefox support because of them, when every other desktop and mobile browser did not have those issues.

Shrug. Maybe the mob is justified in this case. Mozilla's mismanagement drove Firefox from global love and popularity into complete irrelevance. When Edge is more popular, you're really doing something wrong...

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#360

Post by BSDobelix »

Idesmi wrote: post #299
BSDobelix wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, Mozilla will die and Firefox and Thunderbird will get transferred to a community project, Thunderbird survived without Mozilla so will Firefox. Pretty sure that community project will get overwhelmingly big donations from all over.

A web browser is much more complex software than an e-mail client, though.

If whole operating-systems can survive out in the open a browser can too.

Software don't need AI-hyping 6 million dollar swallowing CEO's

Post reply on HN