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Certificate Transparency in Firefox

blog.transparency.dev

71–80 of 116 posts

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#71
post #35

In theory it is good, but somehow it is also a big threat to privacy and security of your infrastructure. No need anymore to scan your network to map the complete endpoints of your infrastructure! And it's a new single point of control and failure!

You're essentially advocating for security through obscurity. The fact that public infrastructure is mappable is actually beneficial. It helps enforce best practices rather than relying on the flawed 'no one will discover this endpoint' approach. > And it's a new single point of control and failure! This reasoning is flawed. X.509 certificates themselves embed SCTs. While log unavailability may temporarily affect new…

> You're essentially advocating for security through obscurity

So? The problem with security through obscurity is when it is the only security you are using. I didn't see anything in his comment that implied his only protection was the secrecy of his endpoints.

Security through obscurity can be fine when used in addition to other security measures, and has tangible benefits in a significant fraction of real world situations.

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#72

In theory it is good, but somehow it is also a big threat to privacy and security of your infrastructure. No need anymore to scan your network to map the complete endpoints of your infrastructure! And it's a new single point of control and failure!

> In theory it is good, but somehow it is also a big threat to privacy and security of your infrastructure.

This is silly. Certificates have to be in CT logs regardless of if firefox valudates or not.

Additionally this doesnt apply to private CAs, so internal infrastructure is probably not affected unless you are using public web pki on them.

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNSSEC is not a good PKI, that's why. There are basically no rules on how to properly operate it, even if there were, there'd be no way to enforce them. There's also almost zero chance a leaked key would ever be detected.

I'm not sure I follow, could you please elaborate a bit more? I'm not really suggesting DNS to be exclusively used for PKI over the current Web PKI system of public CAs either.

That is kind of the value proposition for DANE though.

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#74
post #71
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're essentially advocating for security through obscurity. The fact that public infrastructure is mappable is actually beneficial. It helps enforce best practices rather than relying on the flawed 'no one will discover this endpoint' approach. > And it's a new single point of control and failure! This reasoning is flawed. X.509 certificates themselves embed SCTs. While log unavailability may temporarily affect new…

> You're essentially advocating for security through obscurity So? The problem with security through obscurity is when it is the only security you are using. I didn't see anything in his comment that implied his only protection was the secrecy of his endpoints. Security through obscurity can be fine when used in addition to other security measures, and has tangible benefits in a significant fraction of real world sit…

> So? The problem with security through obscurity is when it is the only security you are using. I didn't see anything in his comment that implied his only protection was the secrecy of his endpoints.

Directly, or unintentionally implied or not. That's an implication you're allowed to infer when obscurity is the only thing listed, because it's *very* common that is the only defense mechanism. Also, when given the choice between mentioning something that works (literally any other security measure), or mentioning something well known to fail more often than work (obscurity). You're supposed to mention the functioning one, and omit the non-functioning one. https://xkcd.com/463/

> Security through obscurity can be fine when used in addition to other security measures,

No, it also has subtle downsides as well. It changes the behavior of everything that interacts with the system. Humans constantly over value the actual value of security though obscurity. And will make decisions based on that misconceived notion. I once heard an engineer tell me. "I didn't know you could hit this endpoint with curl". The mental model for permitting secrets to be used as part of security is actively harmful to security. Much more than it has ever shown to benefit it. Thus, the cure here is to affirmatively reject security though obscurity.

We should treat it the same way we treat goto. Is goto useful, absolutely. Are there places where it improves code? Another absolutely. Did code quality as a whole improve once SWE collectively shunned goto? Yes! Security though obscurity is causing the exact same class of issues. And until the whole industry adapts to the understanding that it's actually more harmful than useful, we still let subtle bugs like "I thought no one knew about this" sneak in.

We're not going to escape this valley while people are still advocating for security theatre. We all collectively need to enforce the idea that secrets are dangerous to software security.

> and has tangible benefits in a significant fraction of real world situations.

So does racial profiling, but humans have proven over and over and over again, that we're incapable of not misusing in a way that's also actively harmful. And again, when there are options that are better in every way, it's malpractice to use the error prone methods.

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#75
post #12

Shameless plug: Check out my Certificate Transparency monitor at https://www.merklemap.com The scale is massive, I just crossed 100B rows in the main database! :)

Are you continuously monitoring consistency proofs? Or in other words, would someone (you or someone else) actually notice if a log changed its contents retroactively?

Not yet, but that’s definitely the short term plan!

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#78
post #69

Would be cool if DANE/TLSA record checks were also implemented. Not sure why browsers are not adopting it.

DNSSEC has aged very poorly. I also believe it operates at the wrong layer. When you surf to chase.com you want to make be sure that the website you see is actually JPMorganChase and not Mallory’s fake bank site. That’s why we have HTTPS and the WebPKI. If your local DNS server is poisoned somehow that’s obviosly not good, but it cannot easily send you to a fake version of chase.com. Part of why it’s so hard for Mall…

There are a lot of things that are different for sure since that article's release, for example the crypto, but also the existence of DoH/DoT and that it is leaps and bounds more deployed. They also talk about key pinning, but key pinning has been dead for a while and replaced by exactly CT.

I'm also not sure how much to trust the author. The writing is very odd language wise and they seem to have quite the axe to grind even with just public CA-based PKI, let alone their combination. The FAQ they link to also makes no sense to me:

> Under DNSSEC/DANE, CA certificates still get validated. How could a SIGINT agency forge a TLS certificate solely using DNSSEC? By corrupting one of the hundreds of CAs trusted by browsers.

It's literally what I'd want TLSA enforcement for to combat.

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#79
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow, could you please elaborate a bit more? I'm not really suggesting DNS to be exclusively used for PKI over the current Web PKI system of public CAs either.

That is kind of the value proposition for DANE though.

What prevents me from putting the hash of the public key of my public CA certificate into the TLSA record? Nothing. What prevents clients from checking both that the public CA based certificate I'm showing is valid and is present on CT, as well as that it's hashes to the same value I have placed into the TLSA record? Also nothing.

Am I grossly misunderstanding something here? Feels like I missed a meta.

Re: Certificate Transparency in Firefox

#80
I have had the flag to enable this setting enabled for quite some time. It’s never caused any issues. I have only seen it pop-up once- for a cert that I had just issued a second prior. The cert was logged properly and the page loaded another second later. Very quick.
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