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Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

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Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#31

Post by grabeh »

This move is against the grain of other sites which accept UGC. It has obviously been moved to the submission page from the main terms of use to attract attention to the clause, in order to increase the chances that Craigslist can rely on it in future.

It will also allow them to argue that subject to compliance with the licence, the information could only have been accessed from CL.

The reality of course is that for a certain number people (perhaps limited) CL will be the only site where the submit content and will therefore not be concerned about granting an exclusive licence.

However, I'm sure a greater percentage of people will not necessarily grasp what Craigslist are asking for here and will not be put off posting elsewhere. Of course, CL will not go around enforcing the terms of the exclusive licence against the user.

The grant of exclusivity will simply allow them to argue that subject to compliance with the licence, the information could only have been accessed from CL, or at least is more likely to have been obtained from CL.

If Craigslist are serious about ensuring they can rely on the exclusive licence it should be made clear that the grant means the user can't post the content anywhere else however this may mean that people would be more put off using the site.

My view is that it's a shame that CL are now attempting to assert an even tighter stranglehold over information originating from users. In the long run it may assist Padmapper in pushing people away from using CL in the first instance.

It's also worth nothing that their terms of use need to be updated to reflect the exclusivity change:

http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#32

Post by netcan »

achompas wrote: post #16
prawn wrote: post #12

From Wikipedia: "In December 2006, at the UBS Global Media Conference in New York, Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist has little interest in maximizing profit, instead it prefers to help users find cars, apartments, jobs, and dates."

There's a big gap between "little interest in maximizing profit" and "little interest in fending off existential threats," no?

Exactly.

Their argument was at one stage that they can keep most of the site free by keeping their costs way down by having a simple site. The though free & simple was better than fancier for a price or even that the simplicity was good in itself.

For a long time that argument was interesting and seemed to be working. Now it seems to be not working as well.

It may be that technology & UI brought to the table in 2002 would have been a net loss for Craigslist & that in 2007 improvements would have been too small to bother with. In 2012 there is mounting proof that tech & UI have improved enough that the potential improvements are huge.

When the gap between what a big provider is doing and what is possible gets that big, that's economic pressure. It will be felt in all sorts of ways: competition, users trying to access the data via different interfaces, etc.

Tightening up TCs or setting legal precedents is plugging leaks that happened because of the pressure. Not only does plugging leaks not relieve pressure, it increases it.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#33

Post by wilfra »

melvinmt wrote: post #24
achompas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit knee-jerk, no? I highly doubt you waive the right to repost your listing ANYWHERE; rather, this is legalese allowing them to sue anyone using their listings without consent.

Whatever the agenda behind pushing this might be, the "legalese" has real implications IRL. You don't own the content of your listings anymore if you post on craigslist - so you're going to be liable if you're going to use any of the content elsewhere (including pictures).

That might technically be true but that clearly isn't the intent here. Craigslist is not going to be suing their users for copy/pasting the same listing across multiple sites...

This is clearly directed to services like Padmapper - which, by the way, I strongly support and wish Craigslist would leave TF alone.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#34

Post by gojomo »

wpietri wrote: post #26
achompas wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big gap between "little interest in maximizing profit" and "little interest in fending off existential threats," no?

No. Either your first priority is delivering value to your users or it's not. Craigslist has changed from one to the other. Padmapper isn't the existential threat. It's CL's failure to keep improving.

Padmapper alone isn't the existential threat. But other well-funded competitors using the same arguments/techniques to offer 'all Craiglist ads, and then more' could be. Hence Craiglist's assertiveness before the principle of reuse is established.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#35

Post by scotty79 »

wilfra wrote: post #33
melvinmt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever the agenda behind pushing this might be, the "legalese" has real implications IRL. You don't own the content of your listings anymore if you post on craigslist - so you're going to be liable if you're going to use any of the content elsewhere (including pictures).

That might technically be true but that clearly isn't the intent here. Craigslist is not going to be suing their users for copy/pasting the same listing across multiple sites... This is clearly directed to services like Padmapper - which, by the way, I strongly support and wish Craigslist would leave TF alone.

But it will be suing those sites. So If you have a site where people can put their advertisements you better look if they haven't posted same advertisement on craigslist and when they do don't publish it on your site.

Of course you can just slap the same lawyer silliness on your form and claim that you have also been given exclusive licence by your users and counter sue craigslist. I'm not sure if court is required to resolve the matter if you both have identical claims. Not sure if who got their "exclusive" licence first matters anything in such case.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#36

Post by prawn »

achompas wrote: post #16
prawn wrote: post #12

From Wikipedia: "In December 2006, at the UBS Global Media Conference in New York, Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist has little interest in maximizing profit, instead it prefers to help users find cars, apartments, jobs, and dates."

There's a big gap between "little interest in maximizing profit" and "little interest in fending off existential threats," no?

If they were honestly all about helping people solve their problems, would they really care if it was them providing the solution, someone else building upon their data, or someone else cutting them out of the action?

If they were honestly all about helping people, surely Craigslist would let the market decide what is most helpful to them.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#37

Post by analog »

dangrossman wrote: post #7
rincewind wrote: post #6

Does this license mean copyright? In Germany you cannot protect facts with copyright. Something like "Flat for rent: $size m², $price €, $coordinates, $link" seems more like a fact or an idea.

You can't protect facts with copyright anywhere, AFAIK. The listing consists of more than facts, including a descriptive title, the descriptive text of the listing, and the attached images. These are all protected. At the moment, PadMapper does not copy any of these things. It's been pointed out. Let's not rehash what's already been said ad nauseum in the PadMapper story comments and stick to discussing this submissi…

I'm not sure that a title or short description would be copyrightable "a work must meet minimal standards of originality in order to qualify for copyright"

The photographs however would be covered by copyright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#38

Post by jc123 »

dangrossman wrote: post #22
achompas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit knee-jerk, no? I highly doubt you waive the right to repost your listing ANYWHERE; rather, this is legalese allowing them to sue anyone using their listings without consent.

Read the text. Exclusive license. That means you may not license your post to any other site; giving someone else permission to display your listing is a grant of a license, and such a license is explicitly mentioned in the terms of any UGC site, including Craigslist. The difference is those other terms always say NON-exclusive. Go ahead and stop by YouTube and do a search for the word. This isn't boilerplate legales…

Hard to see the day when craigslist tries to sue posters for this "violation"; so effectively posters can ignore this legalese as it's targeted to give craiglist ammunition against other sites.

Re: Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting

#39

Post by ChrisNorstrom »

Wow. Under the disguise of a pseudo-charity, Craigslist just revealed it's true intentions. They foolishly just opened themselves up to a lot of hate and possibly gave people a huge reason to try out competitors. This may be the beginning of the end of Craigslist's Empire. This is usually how it starts, users being held hostage, increased control, and decreased satisfaction with the service with no way out due to network effects.

We all believed in Craigslist and this is our reward? WE built up Craigslist to be what it is and now we're held hostage for it? I feel like a fool, why do we keep falling for this? Help the little grow until he becomes king and screws us all.

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