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An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#231

Post by scottbez1 »

inetknght wrote: post #82
chrismorgan wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > In order to make Firefox commercially viable, there are a number of places where we collect and share some data with our partners, including our optional ads on New Tab and providing sponsored suggestions in the search bar. And remember, they’re citing CCPA’s definition as meaning “… in exchange for ‘monetary’ or ‘other valuable considerations’”. This is exactly what people mean by “selling”. It’s…

> Mozilla is stopping claiming they’re never selling your data because they’ve been selling your data for the last few years. If that's true then it sounds to me like there's some liability to sue for in California courts against Mozilla. I wonder if EFF would be interested

CCPA/CPRA has no private right of action for this kind of thing. Only the CA AG can bring forth claims, and penalties would be paid to the state, not individuals, in that case.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#232

Post by rtpg »

eps wrote: post #205
rtpg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there _is_ some daylight between what people hear when someone says "Firefox is selling your data" and, for example, Firefox using your IP address to put you in a rough country-level geoblock to determine whether to show you an ad that was sold to all users in a country. Yet the second one, which I think would be very much considered close to harmless from my perspective (compared to an alternative of "an…

> Firefox using your IP address ... to show you an ad Why do you imply that Firefox showing ads is acceptable ?

I mean they integrated pocket right? They sold the default search engine position for billions. That’s something! Not all money making efforts are created equal, though. We judge based on what the effort is in context!

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#233

Post by rtpg »

drpossum wrote: post #202
rtpg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there _is_ some daylight between what people hear when someone says "Firefox is selling your data" and, for example, Firefox using your IP address to put you in a rough country-level geoblock to determine whether to show you an ad that was sold to all users in a country. Yet the second one, which I think would be very much considered close to harmless from my perspective (compared to an alternative of "an…

> let's see if we can make this honest! They're beholden to who gives them money, which is not us.

It could be us, either directly with money, or even just indirectly by “being the product” but being able to just walk away.

FF exists off of good will and the search deal. The more people stop using the browser the less they’re going to pull in from the deal.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#234

Post by doright »

move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

Would it have been better if Firefox/Mozilla went under as a result of never compromising on their principles for income 5 years ago, as opposed to continuing to exist in this less than optimal form today? If the business incompetence of where to put all the existing money were resolved.

I feel like the people who understand Mozilla's true principles have long since moved on by this point, and the crowd of those unaware still use Firefox as a daily driver, for better or worse. That crowd might have just moved to Chrome without Firefox as an option anymore.

Although, as I understand it Firefox and Chrome will be closer to each other in terms of 3rd-party data selling from now on with this ToS change.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#235

Post by IYasha »

the_other wrote: post #188
mmooss wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the parent, all the collected data preserves privacy: > Firefox also shows its own search suggestions based on information stored on your local device That data stays on your computer ... > Mozilla processes [...] how many searches you perform, how many sponsored suggestions you see and whether you interact with them. That description contains no user content: number of searches, number of ads, whether you i…

How do they decide which sponsored ad to show you?

Usually it's the sponsor who decides. Because, for example, it's pointless to show Walmart ads in North Korea. (I'm not a mz insider)

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#236

Post by IYasha »

ho_schi wrote: post #148
chinathrow wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla, then Phoenix, then Firefox user for over 27y or so. If they can't stop abusing their users, I will look for another browser, goddamnit.

They are only three viable web-engines left over from the second browser-war: * Blink (Google): Used in everything, from Chrome, Edge, Opera, Qt-Toolkit, Electron. * Gecko (Mozilla): Firefox. And Waterfox? I assume Gecko is still hard to integrate. * WebKit and WebKitGtk (Apple and Gtk): Safari, Epiphany and Gtk-Toolkit. Easy to integrate. And the only engine where I’m aware that actually two side actively cooperate…

Some more:

* Librewolf, Palemoon, Falkon.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#237

Post by danlitt »

I get that people are hung up on the "licensing" clause, but for me it is not the most egregious part. They say elsewhere,

> Mozilla can suspend or end anyone’s access to Firefox at any time for any reason, including if Mozilla decides not to offer Firefox anymore.

This is a direct contradiction of Freedom 0, and is at best a meaningless clause (very bad in a ToS) and at worst a reframing of Firefox to be non-free, either by casting it as a service or something else.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#238

Post by scottbez1 »

crowselect wrote: post #151
MartijnHols wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition, wouldn’t sharing total monthly users for the basic purpose of landing some kind of deal (could be as simple as a partnership), constitute “selling data”? Stats like X million monthly users doesn’t appear to conflict with the spirit of the claim, but does conflict with that legal wording.

What part of "we have x million monthly users" is "a consumer’s personal information"? That's information about how many consumers you have, but it's not personal

But, "we have x million monthly users _in Arizona_" would be using your personal data, from a legal standpoint. And if they provide that aggregate data in exchange for money, they are selling your personal data (but not in the way many people think of it, like in a Google/FB sense of building an individualized profile and selling ads against that).

Mozilla might be doing very sketchy things with your data, but it's also very plausible that they are doing a reasonable job at anonymization of data but in a way that is still technically classified as selling personal data (in aggregate form).

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#239

Post by BSDobelix »

chinathrow wrote: post #97
move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

Mozilla, then Phoenix, then Firefox user for over 27y or so. If they can't stop abusing their users, I will look for another browser, goddamnit.

> I will look for another browser, goddamnit.

Well do it, i had Firefox on all my machines for about 15 years, change to librewolf took like 20 minutes on all machines...and it even feels more responsive, and i dont have have to install uBlock manually and other settings by hand, like disable those experiments mozilla can install:

https://librewolf.net/#main-features

And if you de-install firefox on windows you can even tell them why you did it ;)

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#240

Post by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B »

scottbez1 wrote: post #227
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Librewolf is a Firefox fork with this crap removed.

And if everyone switches to Librewolf, Librewolf will die because Mozilla will no longer make money and won't be able to devote resources towards maintaining upstream Firefox. I use Firefox. I hate ads. I don't love that Mozilla engages in some level of affiliate deals to pay the bills, but it's the only viable alternative to Google controlling the entire web and doing much worse tracking/advertising at this point, u…

> Mozilla will no longer make money

Mozilla could have added years ago a donation or subscription to fund the development of Firefox, but they don't want that. Mozilla wants all the money for its charitable activities instead.

There will be a time when they have no money anymore, but it's only their fault.

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