An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox • Hacker News Board

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#211

Post by xnx » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:23 AM UTC

move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

Hasn't Mozilla gotten enough money that if they hadn't wasted it they could've been living solely off interest by now?

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#212

Post by h4ny » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:24 AM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #187

wtallis wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"impression and conversion data", "attribution, causal lift measurement and lookalike modeling". These are all terms of art in the field of tracking user behavior : collecting information, and using it to infer what you can't collect directly.

That data only exists in encrypted form and in a trusted execution environment, based on the evidence. I mean, everything you do on the computer is also in RAM - is that tracking too? There is no evidence of risk. A general freakout is not evidence of anything besides maybe some bad acid.

> I mean, everything you do on the computer is also in RAM - is that tracking too?

Uh... what do you mean? It's not like every programs has free access to the RAM and can just whatever that's in it, there are boundaries. Just because something exists in RAM doesn't mean it can be read, collected and analysed by someone else.

Also, data existing in "encrypted form" and being executed in a "trusted execution environment" mean nothing either. People whose goal is to collect the data can still decrypt it and read it, and a "trusted execution environment" basically means nothing if they whatever they get by analysing that data in that "trusted execution environment" is going to be disseminated to third parties who may or may not have the capability to use that data to identify you.

It's not nice to accuse people of freaking out over "maybe some bad acid". Even if it's "freaking out", in this case it's actually safer to "freak out" and avoid it than taking your ill-reasoned advice.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#213

Post by kristjank » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:26 AM UTC

They believed we misunderstood and they were very much wrong. We know what you're trying to achieve and we're telling you not to do it. I have already cancelled my existing Mozilla subscriptions and am actively looking towards alternatives that either respect my privacy better (seems like Waterfox or Ladybird are the candidates), or remain as bad for privacy as Mozilla but provide more functionality than Firefox (Vivaldi, Brave).

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#214

Post by tannhaeuser » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:28 AM UTC

chinathrow wrote: post #97

move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

Mozilla, then Phoenix, then Firefox user for over 27y or so. If they can't stop abusing their users, I will look for another browser, goddamnit.

You're saying "will" but what are you waiting for? How many data points do you need to leave FF now they're admitting to collect data and willing to display their own targetted ads, that they make deals with Facebook in addition to making deals with Google, that they're green-washing and pushing Google's efforts to take over the web as a targetted ad medium which has resulted in abandonment of almost all browser development and their own browser share drop to low single-digit figures, with funds directed towards nebulous virtual signalling campaigns but mostly to their management and certainly not towards development or the better of the web?

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#215

Post by zihotki » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:30 AM UTC

saurik wrote: post #128

kstrauser wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t help that they make it hard to donate to a specific product’s development. I’d donate to Firefox. I wouldn’t give a penny to anything of their other distractions. (And others would support exactly the opposite, I’m sure. But no one gets to sponsor what they personally care about.)

(Would others? I don't think I have ever seen anyone defend that part of the equation. With Wikipedia's similar insanity--begging for donations to keep their servers on when they don't spend the money on that--I have at least seen some people who like what they do spend their money on as important to them, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone actively want to donate money to Firefox's random side projects instea…

You don't need to go far. Just look at the Thunderbird. People are donating to support it.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#216

Post by 0xFEE1DEAD » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:34 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #201

move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

I feel like there _is_ some daylight between what people hear when someone says "Firefox is selling your data" and, for example, Firefox using your IP address to put you in a rough country-level geoblock to determine whether to show you an ad that was sold to all users in a country. Yet the second one, which I think would be very much considered close to harmless from my perspective (compared to an alternative of "an…

I chose firefox because I don’t want my browser to build an ad network to sell targeted ads.

And I definitely don't want this:

> You give Mozilla the rights necessary to operate Firefox. This includes processing your data as we describe in the Firefox Privacy Notice. It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content. [0]

[0] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/legal/terms/firefox/#you...

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#217

Post by saagarjha » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:39 AM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #21

comex wrote: post #19

> Whenever we share data with our partners, we put a lot of work into making sure that the data that we share is stripped of potentially identifying information, or shared only in the aggregate, or is put through our privacy preserving technologies (like OHTTP). But if the data was fully stripped of potentially identifying information, then it should not count as "personal information" under the California Consumer P…

I dunno, if legal recommends wording for your TOS you should probably listen to them.

Legal is there to advise you. Sometimes what legal tells you is not in the best interests of your company. A good legal team will work with you to identify when maximal risk-averseness is not the right strategy.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#218

Post by koolala » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:45 AM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #146

koolala wrote: post #50

How do you turn off getting your search history sold? You can turn off seeing the suggestions. Can you request they don't sell it though? The company they sell your search profile to could then sell that to someone else.

Where does it say your search history could be sold? They say they will use your data only to do things you request - probably you aren't requesting that.

"there are a number of places where we collect and share data with our partners, including our optional ads on New Tab and providing sponsored suggestions in the search bar"

These are the places they say they sell user data to be commercialy viable. Search history data is the most valuable data they could steal. Selling it for suggestions turns giving it away to companies into a feature. You can turn off 'showing' the suggestions but the feature could still be active.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#219

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:52 AM UTC

ants_everywhere wrote: post #36

move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

Mozilla is continuing to dig its own grave

[deleted]

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#220

Post by drpossum » Sat, Mar 01, 2025, 10:59 AM UTC

"We were actually selling your data according to 'courts' so instead of making good on our promise to literally never do that we just memory-holed it. Not sure what the big deal is please continue to trust us."