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An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

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Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#161

Post by eipi10_hn »

wtallis wrote: post #65
eipi10_hn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not downloaded software Tbf, any softwares that send your input to an external (like browsers...) should disclose like this too. The thing that sends those data is your software, not you. Otherwise, after you click on the button "Purchase" with your credit card information, the only way to not grant your software the rights to send that information is you driving to the stores and give them your credit card by your…

The problem here is that Mozilla has used language that is what you'd expect if the browser is sending data to Mozilla ; there's no need for such language if the browser is acting purely as a user agent and sending data to the address you put in the URL bar.

Yeah, legal words are frustrating like that. When the law comes to their house, using "acting purely as a user agent and sending data" will just help them on reddit but not on court. And no, you don't always send the data to the "address in URL bar", there can be services that are in iframes or with other add-on services like their Pocket, VPN, AI chats (ChatGPT...), similar to any client softwares sending data to other services that are not their own.

That's why they use these words, which actually can include more activities inside browser

> for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox.

There's a reason I won't interpret serious things by myself if I face legal entities without a proper lawyer.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#162

Post by mmooss »

85g5gh85g wrote: post #40
wwweston wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, "Calm down everyone, the only issue here is that certain jurisdictions have sensible definitions that mean we can't legally claim we're not selling data because we are" is arguably clarifying but it's not particularly comforting. Seems safest to assume that if it can be tracked, it will be. And traded too.

If they intended to clarify wording, they would have added something in place of their original wording instead of deleting it entirely. Legal team isn't slipping like that.

Didn't they do that?

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#163

Post by uffi »

move-on-by wrote: post #4

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or othe…

I hate to point out the obvious, but when you collect and share with your partners, it’s obviously a polyamorous relationship. I’m appalled at this intrusion of California on the love life of companies.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#164

Post by mmooss »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #41

It may be relevant that Mozilla recently acquired a Meta-created ad tracking company and is now awash with Meta ad execs. [0] It may also be relevant that Meta is recently upsetting people in Europe for tracking and targeting people in spite of Europe's data protection rules [1]. My guess (and this is just speculation at this point) is that Meta and Mozilla think they're being clever and getting away with some "priva…

> It may be relevant that Mozilla recently acquired a Meta-created ad tracking company and is now awash with Meta ad execs. [0]

That greatly misrepresents what the article says; really Mozilla acquired a company with a mission to get user data out of the advertising industry, which happened to be founded by former Meta employees:

Two years after leaving Meta to launch their own privacy-focused ad measurement startup in 2022, Graham Mudd and Brad Smallwood have sold their company to Mozilla. ...

Mozilla had initially been talking to Anonym, which uses privacy-enhancing technologies to build measurement and targeting solutions, about a potential partnership.

“But that quickly turned into, ‘Wow, our missions are basically the same,’” Chambers said. “We realized that together we could move a lot faster.”

That shared mission is predicated on the notion that advertising and privacy are not – or at least don’t have to be – mutually exclusive.

“We both believe that privacy-preserving technologies are a critical part of the solution to the privacy problem in digital advertising,” Chambers said. ...

Anonym also has technology that allows ad platforms and advertisers to securely share encrypted impression and conversion data within a trusted execution environment for attribution, causal lift measurement and lookalike modeling. (A trusted execution environment is the secure area of a main processor where code can be run safely and in isolation.)

To be fair, the major ad platforms have long offered attribution and measurement solutions, Mudd said. “But they required the data to come into their system,” he added. “In this world, that doesn’t have to happen.”

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#165

Post by mmooss »

diggernet wrote: post #114
usr1106 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Some people want Sync, Pocket, oneline translation, etc. Others like me just want a browser. There should be a simple option to choose between a browser and some multifunction beast that some people and even more managers at Mozilla are dreaming of.

Those things are Mozilla services. If they spoke of operating Mozilla services and data you input into Mozilla services, it'd be fine and expected. But instead they speak of operating Firefox and data input into Firefox, which is much more broad, and just happens to give them coverage for all kinds of data collection and abuse. The fact they've issued this update and not clarified the scope as Mozilla services is dis…

I thought they removed the reference to Firefox?

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#166

Post by wtallis »

mmooss wrote: post #159
wtallis wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling ads isn't even the problem. They could do that and still truthfully, legally claim they never sell your data. Mozilla is helping perpetuate the illusion that online advertising necessarily includes collecting and selling data about the users who are shown the ads.

AFAIK they do the opposite: They've pioneered ways to target advertising without your data leaving your computer. See for example, https://www.adexchanger.com/privacy/mozilla-acquires-anonym-... "That shared mission is predicated on the notion that advertising and privacy are not – or at least don’t have to be – mutually exclusive." And it goes into detail on the investment and technology in that area.

If they've pioneered such technologies, they aren't using them. Their Privacy Notice enumerates many types of data that Mozilla collects and passes along to "partners"/advertisers. For example:

> Mozilla collects technical and interaction data, such as the position, size, views and clicks on New Tab content or ads, to understand how people are interacting with our content and to personalize future content, including sponsored content. This data may be shared with our advertising partners on a de-identified or aggregated basis.

There's a lot of tracking data that does leave the user's computer, and Mozilla is trying to justify it by assuring us it's sufficiently anonymized and aggregated—assurances they would not need to make if the data wasn't changing hands.

It's also silly to suggest that targeting advertising without tracking users needs to be "pioneered". It's obvious that Mozilla could have the browser download this month's list of sponsored search keywords and have the browser check search strings against that list, without going off-device. There's no innovation required to implement that. All the attempted innovation is focused on how to exfiltrate data in a form that they can get away with selling.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#167

Post by sonofhans »

ndriscoll wrote: post #47
teshaq wrote: post #34

While I agree with folks that this is a step backwards in privacy, I think it’s a good exercise to zoom out and understand Firefox’s position. The browser market is highly competitive, and Mozilla’s competitors have orders of magnitude more resources at their disposal. As we all know Firefox’s market share has been dropping over the past years and unfortunately the revenue supporting all of Mozilla comes predominantl…

Mozilla were pulling in ~$500M/year on those search deals. So on year one, spend $15M on a team of 20+ highly competent full time developers for Firefox, put $450M into a trust to fund future development, and find something to waste $35M on. Then for the next 15 years, find something to waste $500M on. The amount of money they've squandered is mind-boggling. If their goal had been to develop Firefox/Thunderbird/Mozil…

Yes, this is how I see it, too. They’ve been operating as if their money hose from Google was (a) infinite and (b) cost-free. Turns out neither is the case, and now they’re dependent on it Google owns them.

They could have funded Firefox development for the next 100 years but they’ve pissed it away, and now they’re selling us out. It’s gross.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#168

Post by MartijnHols »

crowselect wrote: post #151
MartijnHols wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition, wouldn’t sharing total monthly users for the basic purpose of landing some kind of deal (could be as simple as a partnership), constitute “selling data”? Stats like X million monthly users doesn’t appear to conflict with the spirit of the claim, but does conflict with that legal wording.

What part of "we have x million monthly users" is "a consumer’s personal information"? That's information about how many consumers you have, but it's not personal

My mistake, I missed that the data was limited to "personal" information.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#169

Post by wtallis »

mmooss wrote: post #165
diggernet wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those things are Mozilla services. If they spoke of operating Mozilla services and data you input into Mozilla services, it'd be fine and expected. But instead they speak of operating Firefox and data input into Firefox, which is much more broad, and just happens to give them coverage for all kinds of data collection and abuse. The fact they've issued this update and not clarified the scope as Mozilla services is dis…

I thought they removed the reference to Firefox?

From TFA:

> Here’s what the new language will say:

> You give Mozilla the rights necessary to operate Firefox. This includes processing your data as we describe in the Firefox Privacy Notice. It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content.

They're still broadly referring to "Firefox" with alarming language.

Re: An update on Mozilla's terms of use for Firefox

#170

Post by wtallis »

mmooss wrote: post #164
ants_everywhere wrote: post #41

It may be relevant that Mozilla recently acquired a Meta-created ad tracking company and is now awash with Meta ad execs. [0] It may also be relevant that Meta is recently upsetting people in Europe for tracking and targeting people in spite of Europe's data protection rules [1]. My guess (and this is just speculation at this point) is that Meta and Mozilla think they're being clever and getting away with some "priva…

> It may be relevant that Mozilla recently acquired a Meta-created ad tracking company and is now awash with Meta ad execs. [0] That greatly misrepresents what the article says; really Mozilla acquired a company with a mission to get user data out of the advertising industry, which happened to be founded by former Meta employees: Two years after leaving Meta to launch their own privacy-focused ad measurement startup…

> Anonym also has technology that allows ad platforms and advertisers to securely share encrypted impression and conversion data within a trusted execution environment for attribution, causal lift measurement and lookalike modeling.

Wow, "secure", "encrypted", and "trusted" all in one sentence. They're trying to make it sound as reassuring as possible, but they're still doing tracking.

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