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The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

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21–30 of 46 posts

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#21
post #19
post #16

Ok, time for a bit of hand wringing. I said I'd wait a week, but this needs to be pointed out. In the space of one day, we've gone from startup news to rehashed reddit news. http://reddit.com/info/3895/comments Not only that, but the article itself is 20 years old , and is not an attitude I have read in Diamond's later works like 'Collapse', where he certainly underlines the dangers and problems that face the human r…

I don't read reddit, anyway, I guess it takes time to find out what is considered appropiate for the new hacker news. I went by the definition of "is not shown on TV". It's 20 years old, but old articles have been posted before, and I only found it today... If nobody is interested, nobody will mod it up? Besides, I thought this article also relates to startupping, because of the average work hours aspect. But granted…

It's not that bad a link... it just seems so drastic a change:-/ It seems also to illustrate that the intersection of interesting startup links is very well defined, whereas the intersection of interesting 'hacker news' is rather less well defined, and will probably be more prone to disagreement, even if the people posting are the same ones as with the old yc.news, because our interests and beliefs are likely to be quite varied.

Add to that people who didn't see or take part in the original, and while I hope the change will go ok, it will be a lot of work.

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to be careful about anachronism when stating facts. It is true that very few today farm, but take into account that, within the past century alone, the yield of farmers has increased by an order of magnitude, not to mention the millennia of domestication and invention before it. For most of agricultural history, the percentage of farmers was much higher than 3%. For example, from Wikipedia's article on…

Well, all right, so agriculture sucked for a long time. It's still the case that the precursors to many of the good things we have today (e.g. computers) come from concentrating people in cities, which comes from farming.

That is true, but my point was merely countering the assertion that ancient farming cultures had more average free time than ancient hunter-gatherer cultures. I don't dispute that agriculture allowed technology to eventually flourish in the slightest; hundreds of millenia of slow-progress pre-agricultural prehistory are strong evidence of that.

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#23
Repeatedly on Reddit, e.g. http://science.reddit.com/info/1rssu/comments

Agriculture simply multiplied everything. Hunter-gatherers still had and have tribal wars, murder, rape, rapine, torture, high infant mortality, much lower male life expectancy (due to fighting), plus the usual disease, famine, and social inequality of women.

The average college student in a dorm room enjoys greater luxury and comfort than kings of yesteryear; they have climate control, hot and cold running water, antibiotics, corrective eyewear, and of course a far greater selection of food year-round, not to mention a better selection of healthy mates.

Whether people are happier in modern technological society or hunter-gatherer society is almost beside the point; evolution seems to have selected for worried, discontented people -- they outcompete the easily satiated. Even as we precipitate the extinction of traditional hunter-gatherer lifestyles, we can imagine them at some point in the past wiping out even less technologically-savvy people who perhaps were even more happy and contented, leading an existence akin to our bonobo relatives. A similar article written then by gatherers might blame the widespread adoption of hunting for increasing societal violence and leading to a new class division: warrior, due to the ensuing upswing in human-human "hunting".

Increased population can be thought of as a tool; it has been exploited for ill much of the time, but it can also be used for the betterment of all. When we start to live in "The Matrix" (a pleasurable one), we may well rely on aquaculture to produce high-yield algae we farm for biofuel and for nutrients for our IV drips. At that point we may instead regard agriculture, regardless of temporary blips, as the best thing to happen to humanity.

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#24
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't read reddit, anyway, I guess it takes time to find out what is considered appropiate for the new hacker news. I went by the definition of "is not shown on TV". It's 20 years old, but old articles have been posted before, and I only found it today... If nobody is interested, nobody will mod it up? Besides, I thought this article also relates to startupping, because of the average work hours aspect. But granted…

It's not that bad a link... it just seems so drastic a change:-/ It seems also to illustrate that the intersection of interesting startup links is very well defined, whereas the intersection of interesting 'hacker news' is rather less well defined, and will probably be more prone to disagreement, even if the people posting are the same ones as with the old yc.news, because our interests and beliefs are likely to be q…

The filtering by the wise guardians probably hasn't yet kicked in, either ;-) Time will tell if the filter mechanism will help to move hacker news into a specific (desired) direction.

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#25
post #16

Ok, time for a bit of hand wringing. I said I'd wait a week, but this needs to be pointed out. In the space of one day, we've gone from startup news to rehashed reddit news. http://reddit.com/info/3895/comments Not only that, but the article itself is 20 years old , and is not an attitude I have read in Diamond's later works like 'Collapse', where he certainly underlines the dangers and problems that face the human r…

If you don't allow downvoting of stories then you get this, so you have to ignore some stories. But that's much better than the alternative, which is people banding together to bury certain stories that reach the front page (or before they do, if the karma threshold is above 2).

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#26
post #24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that bad a link... it just seems so drastic a change:-/ It seems also to illustrate that the intersection of interesting startup links is very well defined, whereas the intersection of interesting 'hacker news' is rather less well defined, and will probably be more prone to disagreement, even if the people posting are the same ones as with the old yc.news, because our interests and beliefs are likely to be q…

The filtering by the wise guardians probably hasn't yet kicked in, either ;-) Time will tell if the filter mechanism will help to move hacker news into a specific (desired) direction.

OTOH, people did vote it up, and I don't think it was bad... just... oh who knows, I can't figure it out. Back to hacking on Hecl.

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#27
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I beg to differ. If you compare the average member of a hunting-gathering society to the average farmer , then sure, the hunter-gatherer has more time. That's because the farmer farms very intensively, and feeds everybody else in the society. If you take the average member of a farming society , on the other hand, probably about 1.5% of his waking time is spent farming. (3% of the population farms, and each farmer ma…

Actually, in traditional agricultural societies, almost everyone is a farmer. There's a reason that the vast majority of people in the middle ages were serfs -- it took that many people to feed themselves plus everyone else.

You can actually gauge how advanced a post-agricultural civilization is based on the percentage of the population that works in the agricultural sector. Most thresholds of technological advance (most notably, the industrial revolution) have allowed a smaller farmer class to feed an entire society.

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, all right, so agriculture sucked for a long time. It's still the case that the precursors to many of the good things we have today (e.g. computers) come from concentrating people in cities, which comes from farming.

That is true, but my point was merely countering the assertion that ancient farming cultures had more average free time than ancient hunter-gatherer cultures. I don't dispute that agriculture allowed technology to eventually flourish in the slightest; hundreds of millenia of slow-progress pre-agricultural prehistory are strong evidence of that.

Well, okay, but the point of the normal free time argument is that agricultural people have more time, and are therefore able to do more stuff. My point is, it may not be the case that agricultural people have more time on average, but it is the case that agricultural societies give enough people free time to do many more interesting things, and especially, enough free time to concentrate in cities and do things they couldn't do while not in cities. Which more or less negates the whole agriculture-is-a-mistake argument; once you show that agriculture lets you do lots of amazing things in cities, you can argue that those things are worth the various bugs in agriculture (most of which eventually get fixed anyway).

Re: The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (by Jared Diamond)

#29
post #11
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still does not make sense. Humans were in a hunter-gathering mode for quite some time. If they were so much healthier, AND had more free time, why did the society start rapidly progressing only with the advent of agriculture? Did they just magically become smart? I'm sorry, but no. While this article is certainly interesting, and thought provoking, the thesis doesn't hold.

They didn't suddenly become smart and you certainly cannot attribute all the developments to the adoption of agriculture. Progress has been very... erratic (can't find the right word) throughout history. To blindly attribute progress to a singular cause such as farming is short sighted. I'm sure there are many different variables (farming included) that influence progress and discovery.

Agriculture is not exactly the reason for technological advances; rather, progress became possible (but not guaranteed!) thanks to agriculture.

While a few hunter-gatherer societies lived in a place so abundant that they can settle in a single location and gather everything they needed, the vast majority of such societies were migratory, moving to wherever the food was.

In a migratory society, most technological advances are simply not useful. When you only keep the things you can carry on your back, anything that doesn't have a direct use is an active hindrance with a quantifiable opportunity cost. Civilization is only possible when people can settle in one place.

Further, even hunter-gatherer societies that are fortunate enough to settle in a single place have to remain small to survive, or they exceed their food supply. This means that the chance of a given society developing a new technology is much smaller (given a smaller supply of creative individuals). It also means that even if a society does develop a new technology, that technology spreads very slowly, leading to less cross-pollination with other individuals and ideas.

By contrast, agriculture concentrates people together. There are a variety of technologies that increased the productivity of an agricultural society as a whole, and it's very natural for those technologies to spread throughout a society. Furthermore, agricultural societies that are more productive than their neighbors can produce more soldiers (when a smaller percentage of the population can feed the whole society, there is excess labor for armies, as well as other pursuits), allowing them to conquer their neighbors and spread their advances to their newly conquered territories. Basically, in an agricultural society, technology spreads like a virus.

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