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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#461

Post by bloodyplonker22 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #163

It is a weird product for the Framework brand. The pitch for the Framework laptop is that it is repairable/upgradable/modular. Something that is uncommon for laptops nowadays. This is the opposite. Desktops are modular by default, so much is that my computer is like the Ship of Theseus, I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!). This o…

The reason is simple. They're making it for the same reason that Porsche started making SUVs.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#462

Post by mariusor »

9dev wrote: post #151
mariusor wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, for the shop it makes total sense, but for the front-page not so much.

This makes zero sense, absolutely ever. Magento was able to properly cache the view-only parts like 15 years ago. No matter the traffic spikes, serving read requests shouldn’t require hour-long waiting times for visitors.

When money is involved and customers want to make payments to a limited resource (which the release batches are) I think being extra careful is quite important.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#463

Post by poisonborz »

Hackbraten wrote: post #277
poisonborz wrote: post #267

I wisth the 12" wouldn't have a garbage screen - although I'm hopeful for more options later on. This format would be equally if not more useful for gaming/business use case, I wonder why they start at the entry level.

Curiously, what do you feel is wrong about the 12" screen? Two years ago, I switched from my 15" MacBook Pro to the 12" Framework, never looked back. What am I missing?

The 400 nits mainly (looked dim in the presentation even), no high refresh rate, 1440p would have been nice. Unrealted but also only Intel options in 2025?

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#465

Post by panick21_ »

MisterKent wrote: post #410
forevernoob wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...the first Framework Laptop 12 motherboard is going to use Intel's 13th-generation Core i3 and i5 processors I _really_ hope they launch an AMD version (perhaps with an iGPU) soon after that. That and preferably with Libreboot support. This would make it the ideal portable laptop for me and thus I'd be able to (finally!) replace my X220T.

I am a fan of open source and being able to tinker etc. But I've never felt the need (advantage?) to do more than just use the bios/efi to boot or configure a few basics. I've been burned by a small SBC that had poor support, but on laptops/desktops never felt limited. But people always sound so excited to libreboot their personal computer... Am I missing out or is it just nerd cred?

There is security.

The other things is bug-fixing. The way it currently works is that bugs often only get fixed for one version and other issues like that.

Getting this stuff open and having upstream heavy fixing of bugs will imporve the ecosystem.

The other things is performance. Faster boot times are quite nice.

The other things is being able to better play with more advanced boot security concepts, booting with Bluetooth/NFC verification and so on.

And once its open, and you can more easily work with it, and its more available, hopefully more people do more interesting work with it.

That said, its not an absolute priority for me, but its just a better long term solution. So companies that push it are a big plus.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#466

Post by farawayea »

preisschild wrote: post #459
farawayea wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's absolutely nothing repairable about this computer. The motherboard is the entire computer. Only the storage can be replaced. Do you plan to make computers which can actually be repaired? How exactly is the Framework Desktop any better than what Apple is doing with the Mac? I prefer to build my own machines. Why would I ever choose such a product which can't have parts replaced over something better which enab…

> Why would I ever choose such a product which can't have parts replaced over something better which enables me to repair and upgrade my computer? Because unified memory can't be socketed due to signal integrity issues. Framework asked AMD if there's a possibility and they investigated it, but found that it was just not possible. I recommend watching the LinusTechTips video about the new framework products. They answ…

I'm aware of all the limitations they've brought up and how it was sold to the public. It's not as if someone forced them to build this product. They've chosen to build it this way.

This product goes against their principles of building products which are more environmentally friendly. They've done this for the laptops by not forcing people to buy a new laptop when their motherboard is dead or no longer fast enough for the software they run. It's also possible to replace the keyboard, the hinge, the battery, the RAM, the wifi module, the SSD, the touchpad, the case, the display and the expansion modules.

This Framework Desktop 1st gen can have the following components replaced: wifi, SSD, CPU fan, maybe the heatsink, some front panel IO modules, some decorative tiles on the front, the PSU and some parts of the case. A single broken regulator or failing memory chip forces the owner to replace the entire computer. One is forced to replace the entire thing if they have no option to get someone to find the relevant part, desolder the existing one and solder the new one on. This is also not an option for the CPU.

This means that any kind of damage forces the owner to buy another board with CPU and RAM soldered on it for about the same price as the entire thing with the case.

This Framework Desktop computer can be repaired just like most laptops with soldered RAM by replacing the entire motherboard with CPU and RAM. Why would I downgrade the desktop PC's repairability down to that of a laptop? The tradeoff isn't worth it for that price.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#467

Post by mjevans »

saurik wrote: post #432
Mashimo wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So they're exactly like the gaming PC community. "Decibels aren't a benchmark", as an enthusiast acquaintance says. wut? Gamers love to pay extra for a tiny bit of less noise. Noctua and expensive water cooled systems are widespread in the gaming community.

The issue is kind of on the other side, though: you can pay more to improve your cooling in a way that might be quieter or better; but, if you absolutely do not want any fan noise--nor any fragile mechanical motors to move air/water/oil/ether/whatever--you get to a point where money can't buy better cooling... you simply have to put up with less cooling, with less powerful chips that have lower thermal bounds and oft…

I recall a video from Gamers Nexus at a trade event, though only that it was sometime roughly within the last year.

Entirely passive (I THINK / recall there was no pump), heat based circulation, with just TONS of radiator surface and an unwieldy design. However for that entirely custom solution they could theoretically scale up with additional size.

Still, if someone's going _that_ overboard, the heat's getting dumped somewhere.

'Industrial Chilled Water' as in a connection to an external (to the room, maybe even building) pump, and an external cooler (usually evaporative cooling, could be mega radiators in the shade too) like you see at industrial sites.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#468

Post by maeln »

kissiel wrote: post #452
UncleOxidant wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. They could've had socketed RAM but they wouldn't have gotten the same bandwidth and that's really important for running things like LLMs.

Bandwidth to a GPU from a socketed RAM? How?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is an AMD SoC, so a combo of a CPU+GPU (and TPU/AI engine, whatever you wanna call it) on the same chip. And they do share the RAM.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#469

Post by panick21_ »

GuB-42 wrote: post #163

It is a weird product for the Framework brand. The pitch for the Framework laptop is that it is repairable/upgradable/modular. Something that is uncommon for laptops nowadays. This is the opposite. Desktops are modular by default, so much is that my computer is like the Ship of Theseus, I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!). This o…

They seem to be partnering with AMD and AMD has this new nice chip, they couldn't get it into a laptop, so they made a quick desktop.

It seems more like a way to launch a mini-desktop. They can later offer alternative mainboards that fit in that desktop (or anyother).

Yes, its a strange first product, but I think its mostly because they wanted to be early with releasing this AMD chip. Seems to me AMD was looking for partners to push this chip out for 'AI'.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#470

Post by reissbaker »

kissiel wrote: post #452
UncleOxidant wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. They could've had socketed RAM but they wouldn't have gotten the same bandwidth and that's really important for running things like LLMs.

Bandwidth to a GPU from a socketed RAM? How?

They're using an AMD APU: it has unified RAM and VRAM, much like Apple Silicon. Hence why it needs socketed RAM.

Unified RAM/VRAM is very nice for running LLMs locally, since you can get wayyyy more RAM than you typically can get VRAM on discrete GPUs. 128GB VRAM on discrete GPUs is 4x5090s — aka $8k just on GPU spend alone. This is $2k and it includes the CPU!

Of course, it'll be somewhat slower than a discrete GPU setup, but at a quarter of the cost, that's a reasonable tradeoff for most people I'd think. It should run Llama 3.1 70b (or various finetunes/LoRAs) quite easily, even with reasonably long context.

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