Live data from Hacker News

Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

forums.hexus.net

261–270 of 318 posts

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not a slippery slope, its carte blanche for a police force with a reputation for e.g. beating elderly people to death because they looked at them wrong (most famous being Ian Tomlison, but its fairly regular) to not have to hold back just simply because they run into a locked door. And that is before you get into the court system, which if you need a quick primer, just look at the treatment of Julian Assange - an…

I'm sorry, are you accusing the UK police of killing more innocent old people than the US police? Because if so that's a funny joke.

I'm more depressed that he considers 47 to be old

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#262
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that policing hate speech creates a police state worse than allowing hate speech to exist. The system you need to create to police the hate speech will result in more violence against people than letting the hate speech exist. To me, your very statement "freedom of speech ends where threats of violence appear" is a form of hate speech. You are hating on my principle of free speech. It actually makes me…

> To me, your very statement "freedom of speech ends where threats of violence appear" is a form of hate speech. You are hating on my principle of free speech. It actually makes me physically sick to read those words, because I know where they lead. Hmm. Well, it's the US that has liberal freedom of speech and freedom of violence. It also has a "free speech absolutist" as a first buddy and that's going great too. To…

The US is full of bans of free speech, from pornography to piracy, from banning books to banning talk about kidnapping Donald Trump.

Its just that Americans think that that is the default level of free speech, any extra restrictions are an affront, and any lesser restrictions are irrelevant

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#263

These UK laws might boost Tor usage.. let's hope something good will come from the full censorship political tyranny in Europe.

The UK is not in Europe, which would otherwise impose human rights legal constraints on UK government legislation.

The UK is a signatory to the european convention on human rights (hell it wrote it), despite what Farage and the the Mail convinced you of in 2016 this was unrelated to the EU

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#265

What is the meaning of "illegal content" given in the OSA? What will social media platforms be forced to censor (, remove, ..) ... let's take a look: Table 1.1: Priority offences by category ( https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/onli... ) Disucssion of offenses related to: prostitution, drugs, abuse & insults, suicide, "stiring up of racial/religious hatred", fraud and "foreign interference". So o…

We grew up with the internet being a fun place where fun things happen and you don't need to take it so seriously. It was the symbol of freedom. Then internet evolved into a business center, where everything is taken extremely seriously, don't you dare break the etiquette. It's a sad change to witness, but it is what it is.

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#266

What is the meaning of "illegal content" given in the OSA? What will social media platforms be forced to censor (, remove, ..) ... let's take a look: Table 1.1: Priority offences by category ( https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/onli... ) Disucssion of offenses related to: prostitution, drugs, abuse & insults, suicide, "stiring up of racial/religious hatred", fraud and "foreign interference". So o…

All you need to do is have a think about what reasonable steps you can take to protect your users from those risks, and write that down. It's not the end of the world.

1.36 Table 1.2 summarises the safety duties for providers of U2U services in relation to different types of illegal content. The duties are different for priority illegal content and relevant non-priority illegal content. Broadly they include:

a) Duties to take or use proportionate measures relating to the design or operation of the service to prevent individuals from encountering priority illegal content and minimising the length of time that such content is present on the service;

b) Duties to take or use proportionate measures relating to the design or operation of the service to design and operate systems in a way which mitigates and manages the risks identified in the service provider’s risk assessment;

c) A duty to operate the service using proportionate systems and processes designed to swiftly take down (priority or non-priority) illegal content when they become aware of it (the ‘takedown duty’); and

d) A duty to take or use proportionate measures relating to the design and operation of the service to mitigate and manage the risk of the service being used for the commission or facilitation of a priority offence

---

That's a bit more than "have a think"

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [..] as the highs of repressive christian moralism in the mid 20th C. What makes you pick the mid-20th century as the high point of repressive christian moralism? That doesn't seem even close to the high point if you look back further in history.

It's a cheapshot at Christianity. That's all it is.

[deleted]

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#268

What is the meaning of "illegal content" given in the OSA? What will social media platforms be forced to censor (, remove, ..) ... let's take a look: Table 1.1: Priority offences by category ( https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/onli... ) Disucssion of offenses related to: prostitution, drugs, abuse & insults, suicide, "stiring up of racial/religious hatred", fraud and "foreign interference". So o…

I'm no fan of this act but your characterisation is highly misleading.

To pick two examples from the document you linked:

Discussion of being a sex worker would not be covered. The only illegal content relating to sex work would be if you were actively soliciting or pimping. From the document:

* Causing or inciting prostitution for gain offence

* Controlling a prostitute for gain offence

Similarly, discussion of drug use wouldn't be illegal either per se, only using the forum to buy or sell drugs or to actively encourage others to use drugs:

* The unlawful supply, offer to supply, of controlled drugs

* The unlawful supply, or offer to supply, of articles for administering or preparing controlled drugs

* The supply, or offer to supply, of psychoactive substances

* Inciting any offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971

That's very different to criminalising content where you talk about being (or visiting) a prostitute, or mention past or current drug use. Those things would all still be legal content.

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [..] as the highs of repressive christian moralism in the mid 20th C. What makes you pick the mid-20th century as the high point of repressive christian moralism? That doesn't seem even close to the high point if you look back further in history.

It's a cheapshot at Christianity. That's all it is.

You're right. He should have mentioned the Victorian era (1837–1901) as a clear precedent of repressive moralism. Though there are still echoes of it today, where Christians want to ban any sort of criticism of their morality.

Re: Forum with 2.6M posts being deleted due to UK Online Safety Act

#270

What is the meaning of "illegal content" given in the OSA? What will social media platforms be forced to censor (, remove, ..) ... let's take a look: Table 1.1: Priority offences by category ( https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/onli... ) Disucssion of offenses related to: prostitution, drugs, abuse & insults, suicide, "stiring up of racial/religious hatred", fraud and "foreign interference". So o…

All you need to do is have a think about what reasonable steps you can take to protect your users from those risks, and write that down. It's not the end of the world.

That is false. The post you replied to virtuously linked directly to the UK government's own overview of this law. Just writing down "reasonable steps" [1] is insufficient - you also have the following duties (quoting from the document):

- Duties to take or use proportionate measures relating to the design or operation of the service to prevent individuals from encountering priority illegal content and minimising the length of time that such content is present on the service;

- Duties to take or use proportionate measures relating to the design or operation of the service to design and operate systems in a way which mitigates and manages the risks identified in the service provider’s risk assessment;

- A duty to operate the service using proportionate systems and processes designed to swiftly take down (priority or non-priority) illegal content when they become aware of it

- A duty to take or use proportionate measures relating to the design and operation of the service to mitigate and manage the risk of the service being used for the commission or facilitation of a priority offence.

- The safety duty also requires providers to include provisions in their terms of service specifying how individuals are to be protected from illegal content, and to apply these provisions consistently.

Even if the language of this law was specific, it requires so many so invasive and difficult steps, no hobbyist, or even small company could reasonably meet. But it's anything but specific - it's full of vague, subjective language like "reasonable" and "proportionate", that would be ruinous to argue in court for anyone but billion dollar companies, and even for them, the end result will be that they are forced to accede to whatever demands some government-sanctioned online safety NGO will set, establishing a neverending treadmill of keeping up with what will become "industry standard" censorship. Because it's either that, or open yourself to huge legal risk that, in rejecting "industry standard" and "broadly recognized" censorship guidance to try to uphold some semblance of free discussion, you have failed to be "reasonable" and "proportionate" - you will be found to have "disregarded best practices and recognized experts in the field".

But, short of such an obvious breach, the rules regarding what can and can't be said, broadcast, forwarded, analysed are thought to be kept deliberately vague. In this way, everyone is on their toes and the authorities can shut down what they like at any time without having to give a reason. [2]

[1] Good luck arguing over what is "reasonable" in court if the government ever wants to shut you down.

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-41523073

Post reply on HN