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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#341

Post by MindSpunk »

zamadatix wrote: post #314
MindSpunk wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can find me a Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM I'd love to see it.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-wi... Select 32 It's not exactly an out of the park win though as it's only $100-$200 cheaper and it trends poorly the farther from comparing base models you go (particularly after 64 GB, for which you need to leave the Mini family for the Studio). By the time you get to 128 GB, which you'd want for the 70B class AI models, you end up back at the original stat…

Huh. Ate my words then. I briefly checked Apple's page and didn't see them.

However those are the base M4 chip and not the M4 Pro. You need the M4 Pro to get competitive in GPU compute numbers for a more like to like comparison. The M4 Pro mini comes out at $1800 with the 48GB option, or $2000 for 64GB. For the same price the Framework machine gets you 128GB.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#344

Post by brunoqc »

ktallett wrote: post #64
coldpie wrote: post #22

Two other Framework announcements: New 12-inch laptop form factor with 360 degree hinge (ie "tablet mode") and a touchscreen. No price announced, but it is aimed at students: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/frameworks-laptop-12... New mainboard upgrade options for Framework 13 models: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/framework-gives-its-...

The 12 inch is what I will be considering purchasing as I already have a 13 inch AMD that I am pretty happy with.

Would you mainly use the 12 inch one or you like having both?

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#345

Post by mixmastamyk »

I like framework and have two of the 13s, one Intel one AMD.

Am happy with both but the AMD doesn’t support S3 sleep, and so I mildly regret buying it. Will probably not leave my desk often.

Also don’t believe they support ECC memory yet. Don’t think I’ll buy another PC without it.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#346

Post by transpute »

nrp wrote: post #321
transpute wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats on beating HP Z2 Mini G1a and Nvidia Project Digits to market with 128GB of unified memory for LLMs, with bonus Framework port flexibility and a better price than Apple equivalents. Does the desktop have a discrete physical TPM chip (needed for DRTM support on Windows/Linux/Qubes)? At present, AMD's PSP firmware emulates a "mobile" fTPM that does not support SKINIT. Would you consider a future model with AMD…

We've been moving to fTPM (AMD's Pluton TPU) in our last couple of generations, including on Framework Desktop. This is something where if we see strong demand to go back to dTPM that we can look at for future generations.

Ryzen PRO SKU would enable these security features, https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/laptop/ryzen-pro/...?

  Virtualization: interrupts, vIOMMU, nested paging, GMET, SLAT
  Security: memory encryption, Windows Device Guard, VBS, Secured Core
  Management: DASH for rack/cluster
LLM opacity makes inference hardware a target for silent subversion and manipulation of LLM output. Ryzen PRO security features can be used to configure Linux and Windows systems that verify integrity on every system launch.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#347

Post by Tijdreiziger »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #262
Tijdreiziger wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to render all those pixels drained the battery faster, though. It was more practical to keep it at 1080p.

Which is exactly why they did do it and definitely do not continue releasing phones with 500ppi to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S22#Display

Yeah, Samsung likes to tout specs on their flagships, but they’ve also made the resolution user-adjustable (presumably not for no reason).

If you put the phone in battery saver mode, lowering resolution is one of the things it does.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#348

Post by zootboy »

65 wrote: post #324
yellowapple wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want haptic trackpads? Having used modern Macbook trackpads they feel like a massive downgrade compared to either of my Frameworks. The vibration-based simulation of haptics feels uncanny and unsatisfying compared to the real deal.

Why would you want a diving board trackpad? Every single non haptic trackpad I've tried always sucks, requiring excessive force to press a button, particularly if you're not on the very bottom of the doving board mechanism of the trackpad.

And here I sit, longing for the days when trackpads had separate, physical buttons underneath them.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#349

Post by boricj »

dangus wrote: post #327
boricj wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Originally, the homelab was supposed to be located inside a 6U, 30cm deep, encased 19" rack. That would fit flush and very snugly just below my encased electrical panel, located right at the entrance inside my apartment. That makes noise (a glass panel separates the rack from the entrance), power (can't risk overheating in an enclosed closet) and space (6U and 25cm of usable depth is an exceedingly small volume for a…

Actually the more I think about it, it really just sounds like you should move to a mini-ITX case that uses an SFX power supply. Those specs all seem totally attainable in a mini PC, although something with an equivalent chip and dual nvme slots is up in the $800-1000 range. Maybe it would be louder? I don’t think they have a reputation for being loud though? I certainly can’t hear the one I’m using as a router, but…

It boils down to a pet peeve of mine that requires more context.

A former sysadmin job gave me a deep disdain for 40mm fans and modern 1U/2U off-the-shelf AC powered servers. It's a technological dead-end that is a legacy of old datacenter architectures that no longer make sense to continue. A holistic blade-based DC powered datacenter eliminates much of the inefficiencies inherent to that legacy AC design.

Now, I'm not aiming to do a high-density homelab and regardless how cool they are, an Oxide Computer rack is about three orders of magnitude out of reach across several metrics. That being said, I think a DC powered homelab can enjoy a lot of the benefits.

For example, I have one 10 Gib switch, three gigabit switches (one per room), a Synology NAS and a Android TV player. With AC that's six power supplies, each taking a dedicated outlet for less than 60W combined. With PoE I can power all of that directly from my 10 Gib switch. That's five less power supplies and also gets rid of the power strips.

Or take a 250W ATX power supply. On AC it requires transformers, full bridge rectifiers, big bulky capacitors, DC-to-DC converters and most likely a fan. On DC it requires just the DC-to-DC converters, with modern power electronics that's doable at a fraction of the volume and without the fan because the actual power supply is upstream and potentially shared across multiple equipments.

I might have an affinity for doing stupid and insane projects, but it does come from a thoughtful position. If I ever pull it off, hopefully it can show that we don't have to endure outdated and legacy designs forever even within the comfort of our homes. Alas, I'm busy doing other cursed things at the moment so I just put that angry little server in a spare room for now.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#350

Post by zamadatix »

MindSpunk wrote: post #341
zamadatix wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-wi... Select 32 It's not exactly an out of the park win though as it's only $100-$200 cheaper and it trends poorly the farther from comparing base models you go (particularly after 64 GB, for which you need to leave the Mini family for the Studio). By the time you get to 128 GB, which you'd want for the 70B class AI models, you end up back at the original stat…

Huh. Ate my words then. I briefly checked Apple's page and didn't see them. However those are the base M4 chip and not the M4 Pro. You need the M4 Pro to get competitive in GPU compute numbers for a more like to like comparison. The M4 Pro mini comes out at $1800 with the 48GB option, or $2000 for 64GB. For the same price the Framework machine gets you 128GB.

I think you're probably right comparing to the M4 Pro would make more sense but keep in mind you don't really need much compute, it's just that the M4 Pro has memory bandwidth more similar to the AI Max 395+ while the "normal" M4 doesn't.

Every large AI model is heavy memory bandwidth constrained to the point my 9800X3D (with the extra L3 cache) and 128 GB/s memory attached is only 60% utilized running a 32 GB model in CPU only mode (no NPU, iGPU, or GPU offload enabled). Really small AI models can start to be compute bound but, at that point, you don't really need the 32 GB of memory anymore and probably just want a normal GPU.

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