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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#321

Post by nrp »

transpute wrote: post #195
nrp wrote: post #165

I’m happy to answer questions folks have on the Framework Desktop (though probably not until later today).

Congrats on beating HP Z2 Mini G1a and Nvidia Project Digits to market with 128GB of unified memory for LLMs, with bonus Framework port flexibility and a better price than Apple equivalents. Does the desktop have a discrete physical TPM chip (needed for DRTM support on Windows/Linux/Qubes)? At present, AMD's PSP firmware emulates a "mobile" fTPM that does not support SKINIT. Would you consider a future model with AMD…

We've been moving to fTPM (AMD's Pluton TPU) in our last couple of generations, including on Framework Desktop. This is something where if we see strong demand to go back to dTPM that we can look at for future generations.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#322

Post by nrp »

jckahn wrote: post #272
nrp wrote: post #165

I’m happy to answer questions folks have on the Framework Desktop (though probably not until later today).

Hi Nirav! I don't have a question but I just wanted to say I'm a superfan of Framework. I love my AMD 13! I'm as cynical as it gets when it comes to tech companies, but Framework is the only one that seems to be on track to actually make the world a better place. Please keep doing what you're doing, stick to the mission, and I'll be a customer for life. Also please make a smartphone so I can finally be on an all-Fram…

Thanks, glad to hear that!

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#323

Post by nrp »

nikodunk wrote: post #196
nrp wrote: post #165

I’m happy to answer questions folks have on the Framework Desktop (though probably not until later today).

Thank you for releasing an update to the Framework 13! I have an original 11th-gen Intel w/ Xe, and I'm now ready to upgrade (esp. the graphics). Stoked I'm still supported! Gonna grab a new screen, a new keyboard, and a new Ryzen!

Amazing to hear that!

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#324

Post by 65 »

yellowapple wrote: post #182
65 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still no haptic trackpad!

Why would you want haptic trackpads? Having used modern Macbook trackpads they feel like a massive downgrade compared to either of my Frameworks. The vibration-based simulation of haptics feels uncanny and unsatisfying compared to the real deal.

Why would you want a diving board trackpad? Every single non haptic trackpad I've tried always sucks, requiring excessive force to press a button, particularly if you're not on the very bottom of the doving board mechanism of the trackpad.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#325

Post by nrp »

sounds wrote: post #166
jzb wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, that's far more interesting to me than the desktop thing. I have a 13" Framework now, but a 12" would be super-nice as a travel laptop -- and the tablet conversion might let me use it as a on-the-go ebook reader.

The desktop is fascinating if AMD can pull off Rocm this round. 128GB of unified memory for only $1,999, but you get an AMD GPU.

Definitely! ROCm is getting really solid for inference. LM Studio (and therefore the underlying llama.cpp) work out of the box already, and we see AMD pushing forward on PyTorch and other areas rapidly.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#326

Post by pests »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #280
danielEM wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a framework choice, that is an AMD architecture that doesn't use regular RAM modules as it requires wider data bus

I don't know anything about RAMs or their bus size. Is this something that will be "fixed" in the future, idk, with DDR6? Meaning we can have replacable RAM with such bus.

This is getting down to speed of light and the distance to the ram. The RAM needs to be very close to the chip.

This is also being seen in the X3D CPU's where the memory is stacked on top to reduce latency and as density was maxed in 2d space.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#327

Post by dangus »

boricj wrote: post #306
dangus wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense but your requirements make very little sense for that use case, unless you really needed PCI-Express. I’d have bought a Beelink or similar mini PC if I wanted small size and low power along with low price. You lose some modularity compared to ITX boards but I am almost certain you spent more money and deal with more noise and maybe even more power consumption. For me personally my homelab PC is just an ATX…

Originally, the homelab was supposed to be located inside a 6U, 30cm deep, encased 19" rack. That would fit flush and very snugly just below my encased electrical panel, located right at the entrance inside my apartment. That makes noise (a glass panel separates the rack from the entrance), power (can't risk overheating in an enclosed closet) and space (6U and 25cm of usable depth is an exceedingly small volume for a…

Actually the more I think about it, it really just sounds like you should move to a mini-ITX case that uses an SFX power supply.

Those specs all seem totally attainable in a mini PC, although something with an equivalent chip and dual nvme slots is up in the $800-1000 range.

Maybe it would be louder? I don’t think they have a reputation for being loud though? I certainly can’t hear the one I’m using as a router, but it has a lower load profile than my main server.

I have a small apartment too but I might be lucky with my deep half height closet where I can shove equipment back there.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#328

Post by kllrnohj »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #208
coldpie wrote: post #22

Two other Framework announcements: New 12-inch laptop form factor with 360 degree hinge (ie "tablet mode") and a touchscreen. No price announced, but it is aimed at students: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/frameworks-laptop-12... New mainboard upgrade options for Framework 13 models: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/framework-gives-its-...

I don’t quite get why framework focuses so much on Intel and AMD. ARM laptops are in the rise, and don’t need active cooling. It’s hard for me to think of upgrading to another laptop with fans when so many fanless (I.e.: silent) options are available.

> ARM laptops are in the rise, and don’t need active cooling.

ARM has nothing to do with being fanless or not, that's just whether or not you're happy with what 15w can get you or not.

Not many people are, which is why ARM laptops with fans are just if not even more common than ones without.

Also there's a single ARM SoC that isn't garbage at this power/performance bracket on the open market, and it's embattled with legal troubles (Qualcomm vs. ARM over Snapdragon X Elite). And while the X Elite CPU is great, the GPU and software for things like video deciding are bad and break regularly

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#329

Post by soerxpso »

danielEM wrote: post #257
abound wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The soldered RAM is surprising for Framework, and doubly surprising for being so in a form-factor that usually doesn't have soldered RAM. Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.

That is not a framework choice, that is an AMD architecture that doesn't use regular RAM modules as it requires wider data bus

The architecture was their choice. It's completely possible to build a PC with that form factor which does not have soldered RAM, so it's strange that they went with it. Their brand with laptops is supposed to be 'more repairable' but they've chosen to make a desktop PC that's less repairable than their laptops are? It doesn't make any sense with the rest of their lineup. The person who would want this product is the opposite of the person who would want their other products.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#330

Post by goosedragons »

rowanG077 wrote: post #308
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t quite get why framework focuses so much on Intel and AMD. ARM laptops are in the rise, and don’t need active cooling. It’s hard for me to think of upgrading to another laptop with fans when so many fanless (I.e.: silent) options are available.

You trade no incidental fan noise and better idle power for ass performance and "too bad this app you used for years doesn't work". I don't think that's even close to a good deal.

Snapdragon X series are far from ass. Most programs work. Even ancient stuff.
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