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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#271

Post by friendzis »

ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

Yes, in big companies you can get away with a lot of weird shit, but it takes two to tango. If your XYZ depends on someone such an email is a surefire way to get them popping their corns when they will put your request for help into backlog with an estimated slot for a timebox in... 2027.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#272

Post by zmgsabst »

imajoredinecon wrote: post #197
zmgsabst wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I don’t tell you when I’m doing the work, how will I know if you’ve said no or not? If I think one day is enough time, so proceed, but you take two days to respond, now I’ve done something against your instructions. Adding a date avoids that: “I’ll be migrating the build system on Wednesday (26th); please let me know if you have any concerns.”

For what it’s worth, this seems like the fatal flaw in the OP to me. If you need input on whether something is good to do, it’s very easy for someone to reply “yes” or “sounds good,” so just ask for input. If you don’t need input, just send an FYI instead of the weird asymmetric asking-for-objections-but-not-approval.

As someone else pointed out, this is intention-based communication — in the style of Turn This Ship Around.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16158601-turn-the-ship-a...

We’re informing the manager of our intention, but we already decided it was a good idea at the engineering level. We’re not really soliciting input, eg, whether that’s a good idea or not. However, there might be conflicts we’re not aware of, eg, “Wednesday is bad, since there’s a demo that day.”

Asking if there are concerns is soliciting that information — but being clear about what you’re asking.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#273

Post by jsmeaton »

jldugger wrote: post #134
dheera wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're confident in your approach That's the thing. I'm not a narcissist, and my confidence in my approaches is driven by the objective statistics and uncertainties of the approach and NOT my ego. If I think there's a 90% chance something will fail but there's a good reason to try it for the 10% scenario in which it succeeds, that's exactly my confidence and I'm not going to coat it in some bullshit pitch about…

While I doubt most people have sufficient "objective statistics" to truly remove ego from the equation, there's a middleground here. Write up your detailed proposal as typical, but before you click send, put an "executive summary" at the top, with maybe two sentences. One to describe the problem and one to describe the solution. You can put all the detail you want in the rest of the document. But the onus remains on…

Agree. Rounding most of the advice to providing an executive summary is about right.

If you’re not fully confident and think an experiment is worth while, lead with that, and provide assurances there are mitigations in place or a decision is easy to back out of. That’s still doing the work.

If you want an easy decision, you need to do the work. Not expect others to get into all the detail you did. There’s still room for those decisions - they’re just not as quick/easy.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#274

Post by zeroimpl »

zmgsabst wrote: post #67
locusofself wrote: post #24

I like this approach to communication, except the the "deadline" part. I'd prefer my reports just let me know if they are working on something which I may want to veto (because I may have more context as to why it's a waste of time or not a priority). Giving a "deadline" to your manager is strange, and almost like a weird, annoying threat. I also would like to think I would give people on my team enough autonomy to m…

If I don’t tell you when I’m doing the work, how will I know if you’ve said no or not? If I think one day is enough time, so proceed, but you take two days to respond, now I’ve done something against your instructions. Adding a date avoids that: “I’ll be migrating the build system on Wednesday (26th); please let me know if you have any concerns.”

I'd tone it down a little via:

“I'm planning on migrating the build system on Wednesday (26th); please let me know if you have any concerns.”

The original wording makes it sound like it's already been settled, so nobody will bother responding. But by saying planning, you might get some feedback.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#275

Post by ncr100 »

endofreach wrote: post #109
ineedasername wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In pearl or php, $variable is standard syntax. Also used in Bash, ruby, R when referencing elements of a list… I’m going to guess the GP didn’t want to give their kid’s name here and decided not to insert a generic Billy in its place. So this being a forum with lots of people experienced in $programming_language it’s common to reference a generic placeholder in variable syntax. Personally, I think comments on HN shou…

I would have expected the downvotes for not being funny. But i would have never thought to be taken serious on this. But thank you for taking the time to explain. (Un-?)fortunately, i have been writing php for years. And my bash/zsh setup is slightly insane. But truly appreciate your sincere response (except the last sentence, which makes me think, the sincerity of your comment is equal to the on of my first comment.…

It used to be one could say, "but what about abortion!?" And that world set people alight.

Today it's anything anti-Musk or pro-Musk it seems.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#276

Post by harry8 »

motorest wrote: post #263
harry8 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME you often get a response that seeks to turn it into s “conversation.” Keeping everything super vague but something that can be pointed to on s paper trail as “I expressed reservations” Neither approval, nor disapproval just straight up quagmire. There’s no silver bullet to getting things done successfully in any large organisation of humans.

> Neither approval, nor disapproval just straight up quagmire. That's ok. Setup a meeting with said stakeholder, clarify your position, ask for input, and in the end ask straight up if they have any objection. Save the meeting minute and send it to everyone who attended the meeting. They need to put up or shut up. Playing games does not work.

Objection? No. Concerns yes, as have been detailed at length. No good trying to ram it through without doing the work. We can't manage the project for you etc. etc.

There is no silver bullet. You have to treat each one in the way that works for them. Those who do it well, it's a talent.

Or have the compromising photos of the boss and copies of the bank statements so he's scared and backs you publically always and then just roll anyone who isn't effusively enthusiastic. That works too. Wouldn't recommend it.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#277

Post by hnfong »

Xmd5a wrote: post #181
closewith wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let's soften it up: > I'm going to proceed with XYZ in N days. If any of you fucking idiots have a problem with that, then scrawl it down in crayon and flush it down the jacks, which is where you'll end up if you dare question my decisions in future.

English is not my first language and I have communication issues. Having said that you may be onto something unironically. Respectful conversations often pack more tensions than downright disrespectful approaches, such as the way "cabron" can be used affectionately in a group of Spanish friends.

The issue with `considering you don't deem it to be important` is that the statement presumes a particular attitude for the recipient which may or may not be true.

Maybe they were sick for a couple days. Or were recently on vacation (and you haven't been notified yet). Or dealing with some higher priority emergency. Or just genuinely missed the email for some reason (accidentally sent to spam folder?)

Also even if it is true that the recipient thinks it is unimportant, it doesn't follow that the thing should be done. If somebody sends me an email asking me whether they should swallow bubblegum (or something on that level of trivial stupidity), I'd think they shouldn't -- but probably wouldn't bother to respond, or at least I wouldn't write a lengthy email explaining why not.

I'm not even joking, these days I often scroll through social media with a mild kind of twisted amusement watching people do and believe in stupid things -- while I can reply to each of them explaining why they're wrong, it's a well-known fallacy due to xkcd386. Coworkers are admittedly "closer" and thus I probably should warn them about potential hazards, but if it's a large org and I was just among a long list of cc-ed people... I might decide not to bother.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#279

Post by xtiansimon »

baxuz wrote: post #215
motorest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

I really dislike this approach as well. You basically light a fuse on a bomb and place the responsibility on others. Saying "I will do things my way unless someone manages to convince me to do otherwise this within x days" is toxic and places a ton of pressure on your coworkers.

> “…place the responsibility on others.”

It’s a pattern for action, not for making decisions. I’ve been trained and my job is well understood by managers and decision makers in my organization. Many situations arise which are in scope of my job, but are new or appear different but are not.

I use this technique every week. I don’t need to provide deep reasons. If what I’m doing or why I’m doing it is not already apparent to managers, then they have this opportunity to check in.

If I already know what I’m working on is unusual and needs explanations, then this pattern isn’t appropriate, and a detailed email followed by heads up phone call is my go to.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#280

Post by lozf »

closewith wrote: post #168
schubart wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. Sounds even more confrontational.

Yeah, let's soften it up: > I'm going to proceed with XYZ in N days. If any of you fucking idiots have a problem with that, then scrawl it down in crayon and flush it down the jacks, which is where you'll end up if you dare question my decisions in future.

Don't forget to accidentally make a typo in "regards" so you sign off just calling them retards.
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