Lots of good conversation here; I'd argue this isn't a better approach, but different and in many circumstances one of the few ways to get anything done. I put it in the "ask for forgiveness" bucket, but done responsibly. Sometimes it's actually the nicest thing to do, because busy people who don't care enough to step up get to avoid (yet another) distraction. It helps calibrate how much someone really cares, as it takes some energy to provide input vs. just objecting out of principle or as a default position.
Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
251–260 of 286 posts
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#252Years of listening to C-SPAN have taught me the value of declaring what I intend to do and then proceeding "without objection." [1]
(I'm still waiting to "yield myself such time as I may consume.")
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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really dislike this approach as well. You basically light a fuse on a bomb and place the responsibility on others. Saying "I will do things my way unless someone manages to convince me to do otherwise this within x days" is toxic and places a ton of pressure on your coworkers.
Tone is crucial to these conversations, yes. Permission-based cultures are a real drag for everyone though. If no one feels empowered to do anything without the approval of their boss, it defeats the purpose of bringing them on in the first place - for their expertise and capacity to contribute meaningfully in a reasonable time frame. There are appropriate times to slow down and sort out priorities, especially when o…
I like your balanced & nuanced approach; unfortuntaley it's unlikely to make a viral blog entry or tweet :(
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…
What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.
you're making a value judgement about people pre-emptively; this feels like a big mistake. I'd suggest you 1. explain what you want to do and why, 2. include relevant context, 3. how others can contribute and provide feedback. YOU may want to do something, but should be motivated by the US.
Every time you send a message like this it's a chance to convert someone to your cause. Don't waste it!
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…
What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.
'considering you don't find it important' feels a bit too judgemental.
In such case why not just ask: 'Since [reason x] I propose to do y. Please let me know if I should proceed.
If they don't find it important enough to answer, you can just follow your own good judgement, backed with a papertrail.
Still personally I find all above tactics a bit pedantic and not enough to the point... often I just communicate what I am doing and what my next intended steps are, in standups and followup meetings. Or in-between, I just send mails with stakeholders in copy. I will hear it soon enough if someone does not find it a good idea or has a better idea.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
In pearl or php, $variable is standard syntax. Also used in Bash, ruby, R when referencing elements of a list… I’m going to guess the GP didn’t want to give their kid’s name here and decided not to insert a generic Billy in its place. So this being a forum with lots of people experienced in $programming_language it’s common to reference a generic placeholder in variable syntax. Personally, I think comments on HN shou…
In Common Lisp, it's common for special variables' names to have "earmuffs" (i.e., asterisks at each end), so Luke's sister could be *princess-leia*.
(edit: added formality)
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#257The version I've found most useful is "UOD", as in "Unless Otherwise Directed..."
As in "Unless Otherwise Directed, I'll be updating the Foo project next week to include the Bar modules..." or "UOD, I'll call Alice tomorrow to update her on Bob's plans..."
Works well, concise, shows you are on it and proactive, and works both as a proper status/planning update and/or an opportunity for the person to weigh in to change course... (and documents the chain of events).
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#258> Now, let’s take the alternative approach.”Hey, boss, I am going to install action X, which should solve the XYZ problems we’ve been having. Will take care of this on Monday unless I hear differently from you.”
That's how people get fired.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sounds a bit like a fantasy or the rules you’re breaking are completely irrelevant. “I’m going to do X in 5 days if you don’t respond” gives you absolutely no recourse if you do something that can result in reprimand. About the only place where this works is violating some internal design decisions that are irrelevant to the business.
Have been doing all my life and it has never backfired. It’s not about breaking rules. It’s that I already know what you want. If I buy you ice cream without asking you for the flavor, it’s because I already know what you want because I pay attention to you. And it doesn’t matter when I get it wrong because you appreciated the 500 other times I cared about you.
Again, you’re just doing it for things that aren’t real rules.
Try:
- Intentionally violating a safety protocol in a hardware lab
- taking company property for yourself
- stealing from a vendor
- sexually harassing your direct reports
What this thread seems to be talking about is violating soft process norms.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…
> You can very well state "I'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." Love this phrasing. As other comments have mentioned, you probably don't want to go into the full depths of reasons in the email. Rather have a high level summary with a link to a long form doc or RFC. And of course, the appropriate level of detail de…
IME you often get a response that seeks to turn it into s “conversation.” Keeping everything super vague but something that can be pointed to on s paper trail as “I expressed reservations”
Neither approval, nor disapproval just straight up quagmire.
There’s no silver bullet to getting things done successfully in any large organisation of humans.