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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

mooreds.com

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#241

Post by causal »

EtCepeyd wrote: post #205
causal wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ultimatum implies the manager has no choice- but they can just as easily say "hold up, don't do that until I get a chance to look at it". But if a manager is suspicious of their reports and generally doesn't want them taking initiative, they probably have bigger problems.

> but they can just as easily say "hold up, don't do that until I get a chance to look at it" This still requires them to take notice of your query, within the deadline of your choice; and that may not be a given.

Right, that's called communication. Communication also enables you to ask your manager if this approach is okay to begin with, or ask that they acknowledge when you give them such heads up notifications. There's a lot of ways to make this work well.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#242

Post by jamiek88 »

glitchc wrote: post #23

I think this kind of approach, and I've used it in the past, only works in American companies or bosses who are familiar with the American way of business. It can backfire badly if the boss doesn't like it. During a performance review, the boss inevitably labels you as insubordinate and all of the evidence needed was handed to them on a platter. Sometimes asking for permission really is the best way, even in the US.…

Insubordination is for the military. The very idea that a grown person can be ‘insubordinate’ is ridiculous to me.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#244

Post by SpaceNoodled »

motorest wrote: post #180
tracker1 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider it an extension of, "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." This can work for or against you. If your goal is movement, then waiting at every step for a pedantic discussion with back and forth can kill entropy.

> I consider it an extension of, "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." It's not. The key difference is that you're needlessly throwing blanket accusations towards other stakeholders. Is there a way to ask for forgiveness without throwing people under the bus?

Maybe they should get their shit together and get the fuck out from under the bus.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#245

Post by wvenable »

mooreds wrote: post #201
wvenable wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the article does a disservice calling it a deadline. I had the same concerns at that point until I read the example and it clicked. It's really just the date you will do the thing, not really a deadline.

Author here. It's a deadline for feedback, which is why I used the word. Other comments have called it an ultimatum. Both of those might be unnecessarily aggressive terms, but I'm not sure what another one-word term for "time something is going to get done unless you object" is.

It's only a deadline for feedback because after you do it, obviously, feedback can no longer be provided. Timeframe might be less aggressive than deadline.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#246

Post by pixl97 »

magic_hamster wrote: post #170
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

This sounds like it could result in a chaotic culture where everyone does whatever they want unless actively stopped. For a busy tech lead or staff engineer this sounds like a total nightmare. If you're already asking someone about your plan, there's probably a reason for that and maybe there are limitations or dependencies you're not aware of.

The problem with busy tech whatevers is they will quite often not reply nor give a reasonable timeliness on which something can be done.

This method forces them to lay out the timeline they can adhere to, and it works as a CYA as it shows you/your group is ready to act and is being blocked by others.

It's up to upper management at that point to deconflict blockers.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#247

Post by pixl97 »

tempestn wrote: post #47
kmoser wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days I almost take it for granted that somebody isn't going to read my email, or won't read it thoroughly, or will read it but will fail to acknowledge it. One can use this to their advantage if they want to skirt a hard "no" but as you said, it may backfire. And the "boss" may have a point: relying on them to read, understand, and acknowledge your email, especially when it's important, is somewhat disingenuous…

One thing I've eventually managed to learn after failing at it many, many times is that in the vast majority of cases an email can only say one thing; if you try to ask multiple questions, or give multiple pieces of information, best case people will actually read one of them. Worst case it'll overwhelm and they'll ignore the whole thing. It's obviously different if you know the recipient and that they're able to han…

>n after failing at it many, many times is that in the vast majority of cases an email can only say one thing;

This sounds much. Quite often I have to send people complicated lists of instructions to complete a task. Around half the time the remote party only does the first step.

With this type of user I've started removing the top entry on the list and sending the first email.

Around the 4th time I do this the user tends to catch on and completes the original list of instructions solving the problem at hand.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#249

Post by pixl97 »

Etheryte wrote: post #148
JackFr wrote: post #37

This is a recipe for disaster the first time you break something. Getting a yes or a no indicates that your boss is aware of it. When you’re in the hot seat, and someone asks “Who approved this?”, the truthful answer is that no one approved it.

If your boss has to sign off on everything you do, that's not a boss, that's a micromanager and you're both doing it wrong.

Or it's a regulated industry

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#250

Post by whiplash451 »

motorest wrote: post #107
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

Good point. But either way, you can’t decide much in a bigco because most decisions are bounded to money and therefore the CFO.

And so you can say what you will, but if the CFO does not approve, your stuff is not happening.

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