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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#231

Post by kaashif »

glitchc wrote: post #23

I think this kind of approach, and I've used it in the past, only works in American companies or bosses who are familiar with the American way of business. It can backfire badly if the boss doesn't like it. During a performance review, the boss inevitably labels you as insubordinate and all of the evidence needed was handed to them on a platter. Sometimes asking for permission really is the best way, even in the US.…

I wonder how those managers can delegate, or how anything gets done in society at large, if independent decision making is considered insubordinate.

Also, effective military decision making relies heavily on units on the ground being able to adapt and not needing to phone home to act.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#232

Post by docmars »

This is roughly how I've operated for the past 5 years in my career and it's only benefited everyone. Sure, I get pushback sometimes when a stakeholder feels strongly about taking a different approach or maybe waiting to find out whether certain features or scope are needed, but most of the time, like this blog mentions, people will develop respect for you that you can make confident decisions in the work you're doing, and that you've spent the right time understanding how to solve a certain problem without needing to disrupt their flow.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#233

Post by docmars »

baxuz wrote: post #215
motorest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

I really dislike this approach as well. You basically light a fuse on a bomb and place the responsibility on others. Saying "I will do things my way unless someone manages to convince me to do otherwise this within x days" is toxic and places a ton of pressure on your coworkers.

Tone is crucial to these conversations, yes.

Permission-based cultures are a real drag for everyone though. If no one feels empowered to do anything without the approval of their boss, it defeats the purpose of bringing them on in the first place - for their expertise and capacity to contribute meaningfully in a reasonable time frame.

There are appropriate times to slow down and sort out priorities, especially when other disparate teams are involved in the process (think Product vs. Engineering), but when there's a clear vision to execute on, it's almost always better to delegate to senior contributors to sort out the technical details and let their direct reports contribute to building on that vision.

Some gatekeeping is okay, but having a singular PoC to vet all efforts leads to bean-counting, which frustrates talented / capable team members and robs contributors of their autonomy.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#234

Post by thaumasiotes »

motorest wrote: post #107
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

> For example, the reason why "bias for action" works at Amazon is survivorship bias: those who unilaterally take action which results in a failure will ultimately be scapegoated and fired.

I think this is missing something. If everything works in exactly the way you just described, that can still be a strategy that Amazon intentionally implements and derives benefits from. We could rephrase it as "hire people who make good decisions, and then don't weigh them down".

It doesn't look obvious to me that this is a bad strategy, or that the success we see people achieve by using it is illusionary. It's a strategy that many people/companies might find difficult to implement, but that's most strategies and essentially all good ones.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#235

Post by docmars »

tracker1 wrote: post #165
motorest wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. It's still needlessly confrontational. Why are you accusing someone of failing to understand the importance of something? Ask yourself this: do you need someone else's input? If you do not need it, you do not need to ask questions. If you feel the need to request input then in the very least you nee…

I consider it an extension of, "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." This can work for or against you. If your goal is movement, then waiting at every step for a pedantic discussion with back and forth can kill entropy.

It also kills motivation.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#236

Post by thaumasiotes »

Xmd5a wrote: post #181
closewith wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let's soften it up: > I'm going to proceed with XYZ in N days. If any of you fucking idiots have a problem with that, then scrawl it down in crayon and flush it down the jacks, which is where you'll end up if you dare question my decisions in future.

English is not my first language and I have communication issues. Having said that you may be onto something unironically. Respectful conversations often pack more tensions than downright disrespectful approaches, such as the way "cabron" can be used affectionately in a group of Spanish friends.

> English is not my first language

In that case, the most likely mismatch between the language you provided and the responses you're getting is your use of the word "considering".

If you're using it to describe the state of mind you'll be in after you fail to receive a reply, that was a mistake. It is a common connective in English that explains the reason for something:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/considering

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/considering#Preposition (the preposition)

What this means is that the sentence "I will go ahead with changing X, considering you don't think it's important" is equivalent to "I've noticed that you don't think X is important, so I'm not looking for your input on my proposed change".

Learning a language well is a double-edged sword - if you look like you know what you're saying, and you make a mistake, people will assume you meant what you said. You can get away with really outrageous things if you come off as someone who can barely talk. But long after that point, there will still always be things that you never quite learned.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#237

Post by buran77 »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #176
close04 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how it’s formulated it looks exactly like the “opt-out” everyone on HN hates when it’s done to them. It’s effective so it’s great when it works for you not against you.

"opt-out" is just a tool and it can be used for both good and evil. Same as a for kitchen knife or a political appointment.

The key, as always, is in successfully answering the question (good or evil) "for whom". Everyone thinks they are on the right side of the story.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#238

Post by deadbabe »

This is such bad advice all around. Everyone already knows the “ask for forgiveness, not permission” trick.

The problem is if you don’t get forgiven, you are absolutely fucked and the other side is perfectly justified in raking you over the coals. If you had permission, you’d be excused.

Imagine your boss reads your email and knows what you want to do is a bad idea. So they ignore you. You do it. It fucks shit up, now your boss has your ass. You can’t assume they saw your message, they never said yes or no.

Don’t do this. Get a yes.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#239

Post by brokencode »

baxuz wrote: post #215
motorest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

I really dislike this approach as well. You basically light a fuse on a bomb and place the responsibility on others. Saying "I will do things my way unless someone manages to convince me to do otherwise this within x days" is toxic and places a ton of pressure on your coworkers.

You have to use your best judgement. If you are confident in your approach, then I think it makes sense.

You are then also owning this decision, and would have to face more consequences for it going awry. So I don't think it "places a ton of pressure on your coworkers" as you say. It relieves them of pressure since they don't have to decide and won't be held accountable.

But if you think an action will be controversial or are unsure, then you need to make sure you are getting feedback and buy in from other stakeholders before proceeding.

This is not only to make sure you are making the right decision, but also spreading accountability for this potentially bad decision to other members of the team. This accountability will put more pressure on your coworkers, but it is needed to help make the right decision.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#240

Post by swat535 »

kortilla wrote: post #56
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

This sounds a bit like a fantasy or the rules you’re breaking are completely irrelevant. “I’m going to do X in 5 days if you don’t respond” gives you absolutely no recourse if you do something that can result in reprimand. About the only place where this works is violating some internal design decisions that are irrelevant to the business.

This strategy should only be used for things that are "required". i.e _not_ doing it will cause you / your team / division more harm than attempting but failing or running into issues.

The only other acceptable situation is for things that are low risk, high reward but can be important: like clean up, refactoring, whatever..

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