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DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

nytimes.com

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Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#841

Post by rainsford »

cwalv wrote: post #426
sxyuan wrote: post #248

For those who want to have a substantive discussion on the federal budget and believe these cuts are justified, I have a few questions (putting aside questions of constitutionality for this thread): 1. There are claims that federal spending is out of control. How do you square that with the fact that spending as a percentage of GDP is only slightly elevated compared to the historical average going back to at least th…

> How do you square that with the fact that spending as a percentage of GDP is only slightly elevated compared to the historical average...? Why should it scale linearly with GDP? I can see an argument that it should scale linearly with population (maybe), but if GDP per capita increases, you could also expect better tech/productivity to allow gov spending per capita to decrease. > What do you think should be cut, an…

"Better tech" is a double edged sword though because it can result in more efficient output but also more demand for output. The military was a lot cheaper in absolute terms before the technology existed to build nuclear powered aircraft carriers. But if you want to maintain a capable military you need to build nuclear powered aircraft carriers not just equip your troops with more efficiently made muskets.

While certain specific functions of government can and probably do get more efficient as technology progresses, the demand for new functions or more of existing functions goes up. You didn't need an FAA before air travel and you needed less FAA when there was less air travel, for example.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#842

Post by pembrook »

rassimmoc wrote: post #790
pembrook wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild red herring fallacy, I’ll bite. The private sector is indeed filled with lots of inefficiencies, but due to the profit motive and presence of competition, there’s massive incentives to correct those inefficiencies slowly over time. You'll make more profit doing so! Hence, the private sector is constantly self correcting itself and becoming more efficient via creative destruction. You can just look at the numbers…

>>The private sector is indeed filled with lots of inefficiencies, but due to the profit motive and presence of competition, there’s massive incentives to correct those inefficiencies slowly over time. You'll make more profit doing so! Instead of correcting inefficiencies it's more profitable for private sector to: 1. merge/acquire competition, create monopoly, 2. lobby government for monopoly status (ISPs)/protectio…

When stating "all profit is waste" you've officially changed the topic of discussion to communism.

Basic logic would dictate a response addressing that head-on is not a red herring.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#843

Post by jeltz »

k3vinw wrote: post #793
onislandtime wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we all agree that making the Gov more efficient is a good thing but this is about terrorizing federal employees for ideological reasons. There is no crisis to justify this. We do have a crisis in healthcare which is being ignored.

Ha. I have the complete opposite take. That the terrorism being done here is by unelected bureaucrats weaponizing tax payers money against the tax payers like myself. And it’s gone unchecked for decades. That’s the crisis.

Unlike Elon who is actually an unelected bureaucrat who wesponizes tax payer monet against the tax payers?

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#844

Post by skulk »

largbae wrote: post #340
JoshTko wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know what efficient healthcare systems should look like, there are a dozen countries with lower overall healthcare spend per capita than US with better outcomes. What specific skillset of RFK do you find as compelling evidence they they will be extract higher efficiency similar to these other nations?

I'm not sure I meant to take a mantle as RFK's personal champion, but my _hope_ comes from hearing his points on prevention and improving the quality of the food supply. The incentives of both the healthcare and food industries in the US seem to be misaligned with a healthy population, much moreso in the US than in other countries in the West.

Improving the diets of Americans enough for it to have a real impact on healthcare spending is a 3-4 decade undertaking. Without significant support from Congress, this is basically just a windmill that RFK is charging at.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#845

Post by bloopernova »

28304283409234 wrote: post #781
jmward01 wrote: post #203

People aren't voting for what benefits them which means we are now in post policy politics. That means that what matters is the messaging and not the actual things done or the impact of those things on people. This leads to doing things that you have the ability to message the way you want and not doing things that help people. The MAGA crowd figured this out and figured out that angry yelling is the easiest message…

"Limbic Governing System", is the term I learned recently. We are governed by posts on 'the socials' designed to trigger kneejerk responses from our limbic system. By undercutting education, (real) social interactions, and science in general people are falling back to their animal instincts more and more.

That ties in well with my experience of news and social media spewing out "Amygdala-bait". Anything to short circuit your rational thought processes and get you angry, indignant, fearful, smug, shocked, etc.

I don't know if that's purely due to chasing advertising revenue via "engagement". We certainly saw something like it in the 90s with 24/7 news channels.

And with some people being just fine with obviously fake AI slop images and stories, it feels like they're just fine with no longer having to think complex thoughts.

Has this happened before in history? Is it part of a natural cycle in society? I am very doomer when it comes to climate change, so I wonder if people subconsciously feel like "there's no future so why bother thinking?"

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#846

Post by immibis »

wruza wrote: post #817
SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DOGE isn't really cutting things to fund others. Many of their cuts are going to be net revenue negative. Many will cost taxpayers more of their money. It's about gutting the civil service and staffing them with loyalists that will do what Trump or Musk want, despite what the law says. It's consolidation of power and corruption. Musk is also crippling many of the agencies that enforce regulations on his businesses.

Why doesn’t anyone do anything? They risk ending up as the rest of the world according to this, and everything they do is talking 1k+ threads. If everything people say here is true, US is in its own version of Perestroika.

Why did nobody stop any of the other historical atrocities?

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#847

Post by smegger001 »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #687
ipython wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And don't worry, the House is ready to extend and expand tax cuts to more than extinguish any potential "savings" - to the tune of over $3 trillion in extra deficit spending. But don't worry, they've planned for that- just increase the debt limit by $4 trillion to cover the difference! After all, now that the Democrats aren't in charge any longer, increasing the debt limit is no biggie - we'll just grow ourselves out…

Wait, I thought the GOP was the party of fiscal conservatism and reducing the deficit? Shouldn't they be reducing the debt ceiling rather than raising it?

only when the other team wins the presidency. when they are in the white house they spend as much as they want deficit be damned.

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#848

Post by coffeemug »

sxyuan wrote: post #248

For those who want to have a substantive discussion on the federal budget and believe these cuts are justified, I have a few questions (putting aside questions of constitutionality for this thread): 1. There are claims that federal spending is out of control. How do you square that with the fact that spending as a percentage of GDP is only slightly elevated compared to the historical average going back to at least th…

This may seem like a minor objection, but I think it's substantive. The term "their fair share" is a deliberately wordsmithed term designed to manipulate people's thinking process. (Not by you, but by the politicians; it's very easy for all of us to miss these terms.) It makes a substantive discussion harder and less likely. A much more objective way to state this question is "Why shouldn't corporations pay more".

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#849

Post by DrillShopper »

base698 wrote: post #807
sxyuan wrote: post #248

For those who want to have a substantive discussion on the federal budget and believe these cuts are justified, I have a few questions (putting aside questions of constitutionality for this thread): 1. There are claims that federal spending is out of control. How do you square that with the fact that spending as a percentage of GDP is only slightly elevated compared to the historical average going back to at least th…

1. My main concern is the total debt and its interest, as you mentioned in point two. With DOGE, ensuring orders are followed to fix policy is crucial, but some of these cuts do seem more about installing loyal personnel than just reducing costs. I also worry about shifting staff to contractors. From friends that work in the DOD contracting they get paid 3-4x what an equivalent gov employee does. If contracts are cut…

> I also worry about shifting staff to contractors. From friends that work in the DOD contracting they get paid 3-4x what an equivalent gov employee does. If contracts are cut too that could be a much bigger win than the gov staff.

Why would contracts be cut? If you're firing federal employees but the work still has to get done (as directed by the laws enacted by Congress which the president is obligated to faithully execute to the best of his ability) then the only solution is more contractors, not less. In addition as you hollow out the expertise in agencies by buying people out or letting them take early retirement you're going to have more government consultants and contractors providing that expertise at a multiple of what the existing employees cost.

Is the Stalinist purge of perceived enemies by the president and resident billionaire worth all of that extra spending? Is it worth introducing more spending and inefficiency in the name of saving money and efficiency?

Re: DOGE's only public ledger is riddled with mistakes

#850

Post by insane_dreamer »

BurningFrog wrote: post #693
insane_dreamer wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proposed Senate budget includes $150 billion increase in the defense budget, which already was 50% of all discretionary spending (that means after SS and Medicare as that is covered by a separate tax). This is much more than any DOGE savings, and shows that this isn't about reducing the federal budget, but about cutting services in order to fund two things: military, and corporate tax cuts (which largely benefit…

> This is much more than any DOGE savings DOGE is an 18 month project. Confidently asserting the end result after a few weeks is bold.

It's not a bold prediction.

DOGE cut all the easier stuff first -- such as firing employees on probationary status, shuttering USAID. To achieve any meaningful cuts they have to gut Social Security/Medicare, Medicaid or the Military. SS/Medicare is off limits. Cutting Medicaid would not only break Trump's promise to "not touch Medicaid", but would directly hit his prime voter base. And cutting the Military won't be allowed by Congress (who as I mentioned, wants to raise, not lower, the defense budget).

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