I wish I’d found this article earlier. My biggest frustration at work was literally this.
Having to propose ideas a million times before any one of them saw the light of day.
Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
171–180 of 286 posts
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#172While I appreciate the OP's position, I suggest the preference of forgiveness over permission is highly contextual. If you're working on a social networking web site, certainly, move fast and break things. But if you're working on a nuclear launch control system, you probably want to model a "don't launch until authorized" control system instead of a "launch unless told not to" system.
That being said... I've used this technique in larger collaborative projects: "If we don't come to agreement by , I'm going with the default choice that may not be optimal for everyone. (i.e.- don't waste time suggesting your alternatives.)" In my younger days I thought you needed to have a horrible default, but that only works a few times before your collaborators think they're just better off without you.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#173I think this kind of approach, and I've used it in the past, only works in American companies or bosses who are familiar with the American way of business. It can backfire badly if the boss doesn't like it. During a performance review, the boss inevitably labels you as insubordinate and all of the evidence needed was handed to them on a platter. Sometimes asking for permission really is the best way, even in the US.…
There are a lot of variety in non-American ways of doing business. E.g. in Scandinavian cultures management can be very hands-off, with workers largely assumed to make a lot of decisions independenly or among themselves.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. Sounds even more confrontational.
Yeah, let's soften it up: > I'm going to proceed with XYZ in N days. If any of you fucking idiots have a problem with that, then scrawl it down in crayon and flush it down the jacks, which is where you'll end up if you dare question my decisions in future.
That is much, much better, because you dropped the passive part from passive aggressive which people hate the most.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Managers etc don't have time to get into the detail of every little thing, and appreciate when you've done the work, including gaining support from the wider team, so if they need to approve, they can just approve. This is how popularity contests start lol. Managers that work this way are ineffective / pointless.
A manager that organized their team so that each team member makes concrete thought-out proposals with all details covered, so that it's their only job left is to give approvals and do nothing else? I'd say that's a brilliant manager
Maybe I should be a developer that just tries to get everything pushed off to someone else, or just reject the work for reasons so that's my only job.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's also passive-aggrsssive. "I have scheduled beginning $X on $Date. Documentation:... Please remit any feedback, please and thank you" And in the second example, unrelated to the first scenario: "I had planned to begin $X on $Date, but priorities have shifted and $X is being tabled for now. Documentation:... Please remote any feedback, please and thank you." Don't lie or whatever, or do. I don't, but none of thi…
No matter how it’s formulated it looks exactly like the “opt-out” everyone on HN hates when it’s done to them. It’s effective so it’s great when it works for you not against you.
"opt-out" is just a tool and it can be used for both good and evil. Same as a for kitchen knife or a political appointment.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#177This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…
> This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost.
Tangential but I work at a moderatly big company (no idea how many employees) but the tech department where I work is like 50 people, so rather small; and that’s what I consider “the company”. I’m so busy I’m really close to burning out. And except for a couple of slackers, everyone is really busy too. So I’m not sure the size of the company correlates a lot with how busy people are.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, let's soften it up: > I'm going to proceed with XYZ in N days. If any of you fucking idiots have a problem with that, then scrawl it down in crayon and flush it down the jacks, which is where you'll end up if you dare question my decisions in future.
That is much, much better, because you dropped the passive part from passive aggressive which people hate the most.
Additionally, the person is clearly signalling s/he is capable of getting shit done, without being afraid of making the occasional mistake.
Though I’d tone down the swearing
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.
That's also passive-aggrsssive. "I have scheduled beginning $X on $Date. Documentation:... Please remit any feedback, please and thank you" And in the second example, unrelated to the first scenario: "I had planned to begin $X on $Date, but priorities have shifted and $X is being tabled for now. Documentation:... Please remote any feedback, please and thank you." Don't lie or whatever, or do. I don't, but none of thi…
I think something like this to make sure they don't reject the idea:
Planning to move forward with X on $Date. Docs are here, but if you object, I totally understand and will respectfully accept your decision... though I'd hate for this to be one of those decisions that comes back to haunt you.
Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
> - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. It's still needlessly confrontational. Why are you accusing someone of failing to understand the importance of something? Ask yourself this: do you need someone else's input? If you do not need it, you do not need to ask questions. If you feel the need to request input then in the very least you nee…
I consider it an extension of, "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." This can work for or against you. If your goal is movement, then waiting at every step for a pedantic discussion with back and forth can kill entropy.
> I consider it an extension of, "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."
It's not. The key difference is that you're needlessly throwing blanket accusations towards other stakeholders. Is there a way to ask for forgiveness without throwing people under the bus?