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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#131

Post by dqv »

exodust wrote: post #85
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

> "Occasionally someone will come back weeks later, angry that I did XYZ without telling them... " Something fishy about this comment. Apparently you "do this all the time", spelling out the magic phrase you use like a template. Are you sure this is your anecdote and not a projection of how you'd like to be operating at work, as per the main article? I'm trying to imagine the scene where you "show the paper trail" to…

> I'm trying to imagine the scene where you "show the paper trail" to achieve victory over your angry colleagues! That's when my bullshit detector is all up in the red zone.

The scene is someone sitting at a computer replying to a chiding email with a blurb about having previously sent a notice and said notice attached. It's not really that theatrical or hard to imagine.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#133

Post by andrei_says_ »

nlitened wrote: post #129
whoknowsidont wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Managers etc don't have time to get into the detail of every little thing, and appreciate when you've done the work, including gaining support from the wider team, so if they need to approve, they can just approve. This is how popularity contests start lol. Managers that work this way are ineffective / pointless.

A manager that organized their team so that each team member makes concrete thought-out proposals with all details covered, so that it's their only job left is to give approvals and do nothing else? I'd say that's a brilliant manager

I agree and that’s how I often get things greenlit.

Pro tip: have a quick conversation with a manager and have them make a decision on a $noncriticaldetail before the announcement.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#134

Post by jldugger »

dheera wrote: post #128
jsmeaton wrote: post #120

I often give similar advice to colleagues that ask me for pointers on getting their recommendations approved. "Make it as easy as possible for them to say yes" Don't dump 14 paragraphs in front of someone expecting them to get onto the same level that you've been after many hours of studying a problem. If you're confident in your approach (and you should be, if you want an easy yes!), then be succinct, briefly descri…

> If you're confident in your approach That's the thing. I'm not a narcissist, and my confidence in my approaches is driven by the objective statistics and uncertainties of the approach and NOT my ego. If I think there's a 90% chance something will fail but there's a good reason to try it for the 10% scenario in which it succeeds, that's exactly my confidence and I'm not going to coat it in some bullshit pitch about…

While I doubt most people have sufficient "objective statistics" to truly remove ego from the equation, there's a middleground here.

Write up your detailed proposal as typical, but before you click send, put an "executive summary" at the top, with maybe two sentences. One to describe the problem and one to describe the solution. You can put all the detail you want in the rest of the document. But the onus remains on you the engineer to make a recommendation, not just list options. If you genuinely believe yourself to be a probabilities it should be easy!

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#135

Post by bob1029 »

> Again, pursue this approach for problems you feel are in the scope of your role

If something is actually in scope of your role, you shouldn't be bothering your manager about it. Wait for them to come to you and then provide an update about your progress or new ideas/concerns. Every time you send an unsolicited email to your boss it costs time and money. Doesn't matter how it's worded. It's gonna consume some energy.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#136

Post by genewitch »

Xmd5a wrote: post #123
motorest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.

That's also passive-aggrsssive.

"I have scheduled beginning $X on $Date. Documentation:... Please remit any feedback, please and thank you"

And in the second example, unrelated to the first scenario: "I had planned to begin $X on $Date, but priorities have shifted and $X is being tabled for now. Documentation:... Please remote any feedback, please and thank you."

Don't lie or whatever, or do. I don't, but none of this feels manipulative, you're just managing your time and workload.

I may have missed some nuance.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#138

Post by genewitch »

endofreach wrote: post #109
ineedasername wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In pearl or php, $variable is standard syntax. Also used in Bash, ruby, R when referencing elements of a list… I’m going to guess the GP didn’t want to give their kid’s name here and decided not to insert a generic Billy in its place. So this being a forum with lots of people experienced in $programming_language it’s common to reference a generic placeholder in variable syntax. Personally, I think comments on HN shou…

I would have expected the downvotes for not being funny. But i would have never thought to be taken serious on this. But thank you for taking the time to explain. (Un-?)fortunately, i have been writing php for years. And my bash/zsh setup is slightly insane. But truly appreciate your sincere response (except the last sentence, which makes me think, the sincerity of your comment is equal to the on of my first comment.…

On desktop I vouch for stuff that's flagged like this. Can't on materialistic. Someone else should, though.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#139

Post by genewitch »

ineedasername wrote: post #102
dylan604 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s still ambiguous. There’s no default action listed if no response is given. Listing the default action is your CYA that a non response is approval of the default

Well, the CYA in less healthy workplaces could be to leave things vague, if the person doesn’t respond then do what you want when the time comes, and if anything goes wrong you can pin it on the person who ghosted you on a response. Bonus points if you send that first email and immediately seek an in person response. The other person will then figure an email response is unnecessary, thus guaranteeing your ability to…

I never would do what you suggest but I always had the network room door codes. Scotch tape and a thin plastic needle to rub it down to blend the colors on the copper part of the cable, then into the patch panel.

I once playfully threatened a helpdesk senior manager: if you dont tell your team to shut to coffee pot off in the evenings I'm gunna start putting your LTO tapes into the carafe whenever Im forced to be here at 2AM cleaning a coffee pot so I don't take a box cutter to the entire patch panel.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#140

Post by Cthulhu_ »

ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

I wish I could do this with merge requests but unfortunately we'll have to find some other way.
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