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Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

science.nasa.gov

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Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#11

Post by sktrdie »

rbanffy wrote: post #8

Please, can we now put a reasonable nuclear reactor in space, power a VASIMIR engine (or something equally adequate), and do it with humans instead of robots? We already proved we can do it with machines and who will make first contact with alien life in becoming a really important question. We are not a race of robots. People wonder why the general public lost interest with space exploration, but we need to look no…

I couldn't agree more, however, if humans are too expensive, I still don't mind the robots getting there first. The moon landing was an outcome of the cold war. I find it hard happening again. Sending humans all the way to Saturn - it is very far away - is a dangerous task with too much at stake.

I would love for all wars to end, for all the military budget to go to NASA instead, and for us to become a truly inter-planetary civilization, but that's just not a realistic wish, at least not for the next decades.

But robots. Robots we can do now. Curiosity landing on Mars next week. It can do truly amazing things, scientifically more than a team of humans could.

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#13

Post by awolf »

bcbrown wrote: post #7
quotemstr wrote: post #6

It's not really an "ocean" in the way we think of such things. In the outer solar system, ice is a rock in the same way granite is a rock. What Titan has isn't so much an ocean as an interior layer of molten ice --- just as our planet has an interior layer of molten rock.

What's the difference between "molten ice" and water? Is it still crystalline? Is it just the pressure is different, or is there actual physical differences?

Perhaps by "molten ice" he means that the H20 is in its liquid state not because of the surrounding temperature but because of the pressure exerted upon it by the upper layers. Just a guess.

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#14

Post by tscrib »

rbanffy wrote: post #8

Please, can we now put a reasonable nuclear reactor in space, power a VASIMIR engine (or something equally adequate), and do it with humans instead of robots? We already proved we can do it with machines and who will make first contact with alien life in becoming a really important question. We are not a race of robots. People wonder why the general public lost interest with space exploration, but we need to look no…

As much as I want to commiserate with you about sending humans into space - I have to remind myself that this is an escapist's fantasy. I am also an engineer, and a realist.

We just happen to be tied to a water-filled, fertile, and atmospherically suitable planet - the only one of this kind we can reach with our current technology. Looking to the stars is an easy way to ignore problems of over-consumption, over-population and climate change. If we don't figure out how to live on this planet, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes elsewhere.

Let's pull our gaze back down to Earth: our capital is better spent addressing Earthly problems vice sending us out on an inter-planetary expedition.

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#15

Post by jsz0 »

rbanffy wrote: post #8

Please, can we now put a reasonable nuclear reactor in space, power a VASIMIR engine (or something equally adequate), and do it with humans instead of robots? We already proved we can do it with machines and who will make first contact with alien life in becoming a really important question. We are not a race of robots. People wonder why the general public lost interest with space exploration, but we need to look no…

With all due respect this is like saying we shouldn't use rockets to go into space but instead try to jump higher. Humans using their big monkey brains to make technological advancements is the core of space exploration. We should be inspired by the people designing and operating the technology. Probably more so than the (mostly) non-scientists and non-engineers who flew rockets to the Moon for example.

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#16

Post by lukifer »

tscrib wrote: post #14
rbanffy wrote: post #8

Please, can we now put a reasonable nuclear reactor in space, power a VASIMIR engine (or something equally adequate), and do it with humans instead of robots? We already proved we can do it with machines and who will make first contact with alien life in becoming a really important question. We are not a race of robots. People wonder why the general public lost interest with space exploration, but we need to look no…

As much as I want to commiserate with you about sending humans into space - I have to remind myself that this is an escapist's fantasy. I am also an engineer, and a realist. We just happen to be tied to a water-filled, fertile, and atmospherically suitable planet - the only one of this kind we can reach with our current technology. Looking to the stars is an easy way to ignore problems of over-consumption, over-popul…

I think there's a middle way: double-down on sending robots to space, which technologically and economically spurs innovation and sustainability on earth, that we might someday be in a position to send humans to space for extended stays.

Planetary Resources is going in the right direction. Capturing humanity's imagination is a good start; capturing their investment capital is what actually gets things done.

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#17

Post by tscrib »

lukifer wrote: post #16
tscrib wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I want to commiserate with you about sending humans into space - I have to remind myself that this is an escapist's fantasy. I am also an engineer, and a realist. We just happen to be tied to a water-filled, fertile, and atmospherically suitable planet - the only one of this kind we can reach with our current technology. Looking to the stars is an easy way to ignore problems of over-consumption, over-popul…

I think there's a middle way: double-down on sending robots to space, which technologically and economically spurs innovation and sustainability on earth, that we might someday be in a position to send humans to space for extended stays. Planetary Resources is going in the right direction. Capturing humanity's imagination is a good start; capturing their investment capital is what actually gets things done.

I'd second that. By no means would I want to see space exploration stop. I just don't think we should be looking to live elsewhere when we can't live here.

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#18

Post by hooande »

rbanffy wrote: post #8

Please, can we now put a reasonable nuclear reactor in space, power a VASIMIR engine (or something equally adequate), and do it with humans instead of robots? We already proved we can do it with machines and who will make first contact with alien life in becoming a really important question. We are not a race of robots. People wonder why the general public lost interest with space exploration, but we need to look no…

Do you think that the great explorers of the past would have risked their lives if they could have avoided it? Danger is a big part of the adventure of exploration, but no one wants to die unless it's absolutely necessary. If Colombus could have sent a robot, he would have.

The bottom line is that Bags of Mostly Water don't belong in space. Our only hope for colonizing the solar system is to do most of the heavy lifting with robots. And if I were one of those colonists, I would sleep easier under the martian moons knowing that I had an army of space robots to help me with any problems that arise.

Humans find ways to explore the universe while keeping themselves alive. Let's embrace it

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#19

Post by andrewflnr »

hooande wrote: post #18
rbanffy wrote: post #8

Please, can we now put a reasonable nuclear reactor in space, power a VASIMIR engine (or something equally adequate), and do it with humans instead of robots? We already proved we can do it with machines and who will make first contact with alien life in becoming a really important question. We are not a race of robots. People wonder why the general public lost interest with space exploration, but we need to look no…

Do you think that the great explorers of the past would have risked their lives if they could have avoided it? Danger is a big part of the adventure of exploration, but no one wants to die unless it's absolutely necessary. If Colombus could have sent a robot, he would have. The bottom line is that Bags of Mostly Water don't belong in space. Our only hope for colonizing the solar system is to do most of the heavy lift…

I don't believe Columbus would have sent a robot. Sure, explorers would rather not die exploring, but generally, I don't think that not being there is an acceptable price.

Would you send a robot to the top of a mountain if you could, or do you want to climb it yourself?

Re: Titan, one of Saturn's moons, has an underground ocean

#20

Post by andrewflnr »

mikepurvis wrote: post #10
rbanffy wrote: post #8

Please, can we now put a reasonable nuclear reactor in space, power a VASIMIR engine (or something equally adequate), and do it with humans instead of robots? We already proved we can do it with machines and who will make first contact with alien life in becoming a really important question. We are not a race of robots. People wonder why the general public lost interest with space exploration, but we need to look no…

A lot of the Rocket to Nowhere arguments address your points: http://idlewords.com/2005/08/a_rocket_to_nowhere.htm In short, as soon as large hairless mammals are involved in the mission, 99% of the mission's resources are suddenly consumed with keeping said large hairless mammals fed, watered, breathing, amused, etc. So basically, there's nothing left to do anything of much value, especially on any kind of reasonabl…

Yeah, but the whole point of the mission, robots or no, is to benefit large hairless mammals. So if the hairless mammals think it's to their benefit to be on the ship, that's where the resources go, assuming they can get the resources together. Of course if that's not the goal of a given mission, then robots are more likely.

Yes, humans make everything more complicated, but without them, there's not much point in doing anything.

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