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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#21

Post by OutOfHere »

mazambazz wrote: post #17
OutOfHere wrote: post #3

Why bother. If the company doesn't want to respond in the affirmative to a valuable idea that has been communicated clearly, let it torpedo itself and dig its grave. Whatever the answer, the outcome will be righteous. In the bigger scheme of things, it is better to evolve companies that answer optimally. There is no need to ever bend over backwards to save a company that is not your own.

I hardly think wanting to be more productive/efficient on your own behalf is "bending over backwards" to save a company. It could be a project with a deadline, and you want to knock some things out earlier so that there is less crunch time needed in a few weeks. Maybe you want to get some of your work done early so you can take it easier in near future where you anticipate yourself being preoccupied with other respon…

I would rather just work at a place where my hands weren't so tied. The actions you noted only come in the way of it.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#22

Post by OutOfHere »

hackerknew wrote: post #10
OutOfHere wrote: post #3

Why bother. If the company doesn't want to respond in the affirmative to a valuable idea that has been communicated clearly, let it torpedo itself and dig its grave. Whatever the answer, the outcome will be righteous. In the bigger scheme of things, it is better to evolve companies that answer optimally. There is no need to ever bend over backwards to save a company that is not your own.

Sometimes the ask is something that you want to improve your own experience at the company. Let's say the ask involves improving the quality of the code that you work on every day. You know your boss will not say "yes" because refactoring does not have an apparent value. But you are confident that if you can some time to work exclusively on some refactor, it will be a benefit not only to the company, but to your futu…

I would rather just work at a place where my hands weren't so tied. The actions you noted only come in the way of it.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#23

Post by glitchc »

I think this kind of approach, and I've used it in the past, only works in American companies or bosses who are familiar with the American way of business. It can backfire badly if the boss doesn't like it. During a performance review, the boss inevitably labels you as insubordinate and all of the evidence needed was handed to them on a platter. Sometimes asking for permission really is the best way, even in the US. Doubly so where resources are concerned.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#24

Post by locusofself »

I like this approach to communication, except the the "deadline" part. I'd prefer my reports just let me know if they are working on something which I may want to veto (because I may have more context as to why it's a waste of time or not a priority). Giving a "deadline" to your manager is strange, and almost like a weird, annoying threat. I also would like to think I would give people on my team enough autonomy to make their own decisions about something as trivial as a github action.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#25

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

I pretty much work this way.

In my experience, they completely ignore what I’m doing (“yeah…whatevs”), then pitch a fit, when they see the result. I get a lot of whining about how come I don’t have clairvoyance, and didn’t interpret their ignoring me, as a “no.”

Annoying AF, but I still do it, as I can point to my statement of intent, and tell them that they had their chance. Often, I don’t just ask for a “no.” I also ask for specific input and feedback (which I also don’t get). That gives me more ammo, when they get butthurt.

The trick is to not do something that will really upset them. That takes experience and empathy.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#26

Post by coffeemug »

glitchc wrote: post #23

I think this kind of approach, and I've used it in the past, only works in American companies or bosses who are familiar with the American way of business. It can backfire badly if the boss doesn't like it. During a performance review, the boss inevitably labels you as insubordinate and all of the evidence needed was handed to them on a platter. Sometimes asking for permission really is the best way, even in the US.…

I don't think I've ever worked for a boss who would have disliked this approach, and I had many (good and bad). Assuming of course what you're doing isn't idiotic. All of them were steeped in American culture, though.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#27

Post by zulban »

OutOfHere wrote: post #3

Why bother. If the company doesn't want to respond in the affirmative to a valuable idea that has been communicated clearly, let it torpedo itself and dig its grave. Whatever the answer, the outcome will be righteous. In the bigger scheme of things, it is better to evolve companies that answer optimally. There is no need to ever bend over backwards to save a company that is not your own.

Your career isn't going to go very far if you have no strategies to overcome roadblocks and deadweight employees in a large org. "Let it torpedo itself" and then what? Find a new job any time you encounter stupid obstacles? That's a new job every 4 months.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#28

Post by foobarian »

coffeemug wrote: post #26
glitchc wrote: post #23

I think this kind of approach, and I've used it in the past, only works in American companies or bosses who are familiar with the American way of business. It can backfire badly if the boss doesn't like it. During a performance review, the boss inevitably labels you as insubordinate and all of the evidence needed was handed to them on a platter. Sometimes asking for permission really is the best way, even in the US.…

I don't think I've ever worked for a boss who would have disliked this approach, and I had many (good and bad). Assuming of course what you're doing isn't idiotic. All of them were steeped in American culture, though.

Honestly it's not my boss I worry about, more like a sibling team or service client that would have a stake in the decision but is known to drag their feet.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#30

Post by bee_rider »

danielheath wrote: post #12
OutOfHere wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a high-pressure sales tactic, and the obvious answer to such a question is "Let me get back to you." If I am forced to schedule, I will schedule and then cancel.

I don’t do sales, but I use this all the time with friends - not to force a particular schedule, but to remove ambiguity about my availability. Folks are generally happy to suggest another time if they aren’t available. If I put “let’s catch up” out there with no information about when I am available, I’m giving the other person the mental labour of initiating the scheduling process.

I often say something along the lines of “I suggest X day, but I picked it completely at random just to get the ball rolling, so feel free to overrule.”

I do find that people tend to just sort of be overwhelmed by the options when scheduling stuff, so it is easier to just suggest something. But, I hope/think putting all my cards on the table and explicitly pointing out how arbitrary it is makes it seem less presumptuous.

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