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Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

reuters.com

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Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#81

Post by cygx »

Someone wrote: post #74
cygx wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has been a consistent net exporter of electrical energy since 2003. The circumstances have changed, though: In addition to two nuclear plants which were dormant since 2007 and 2009, six plants were shut down in mid-May 2011, and all of them are now gone for good. The balance was still positive in 2011, and I suspect it will be this year as well, but it might be a close thing.

On the other hand, they are huge oil and coal importers ( http://www.iea.org/stats/balancetable.asp?COUNTRY_CODE=DE )

That's a pretty useless metric, though: every industrialized nation 'burns stuff', and if it happens that you can't produce at home, you need to import.

While not a poster child, Germany is far from the worst offender as far as CO2 emission per capita goes.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#82

Post by lispm »

jbellis wrote: post #75

In related news, German electricity is 30% more expensive than French, and 300% more expensive than American. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#Global_elec...

In other news German electricity is heavy taxed and Germans consume half the electricity than an American.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#83

Post by lispm »

anewguy wrote: post #80
rayiner wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In related news: American electricity is artificially cheap.

The United States has an abundance of cheap natural gas and the will to drill it. Incidentally, substituting gas for coal has allowed the US to lead the world in reducing CO2 emissions[1]. Yes, that's right, the US has reduced its emissions more than any other country in the last five years, thanks to technical innovations that have lowered the price of natural gas. [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/…

Reduced. In absolute terms you still lead. Negatively.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#84

Post by sliverstorm »

danielharan wrote: post #72

There's a lesson here for startup folks. Years ago, people said renewables wouldn't ever amount to much. Sure, it's growing exponentially, but look at how small it is! And yes, costs keep going down but it will take forever before it's competitive with coal and nuclear. Forever's come and gone. Oil and gas went up in price. Exponential growth generated a nice experience curve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_c…

Alternative energy is not 25% of German production because it is competitive. They are forcing it through, in spite of the fact that it is not competitive.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#85

Post by lispm »

rmc wrote: post #18

This article describes the power Germany produced, but doesn't mention the power Germany consumed. Does Germany import a lot of power? If so, that would be a good way to tweak the numbers, just import more non-renewables, and produce less non-renewables at home.

Germany is a net exporter. We exported 8 TWh in the first quarter of 2012, IIRC.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#86

Post by sliverstorm »

danielharan wrote: post #70
dredmorbius wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not renewable, but it is essentially zero-impact as far as atmospheric carbon dioxide emissions are concerned. I'm hedging only because someone will come along and cite fossil-fuel based ancillary activities related to nuclear fuel mining, processing, transport, and disposal if I say "zero". But for all intents, zero. There are breeder reactor designs which convert far more abundant non-fissile isotopes to fuel-…

Yes, all the things you mentioned, plus building the actual plant. As far as new breeder designs, it's a bit too late. Nuclear promised us "energy too cheap to meter" and construction and maintenance costs have kept going down. Meanwhile solar and wind have been regularly going down in price with each doubling of production. The case against nuclear isn't environmental; it's economic.

The case against nuclear isn't environmental; it's economic.

No, it's mostly just fear.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#87

Post by danielharan »

sliverstorm wrote: post #84
danielharan wrote: post #72

There's a lesson here for startup folks. Years ago, people said renewables wouldn't ever amount to much. Sure, it's growing exponentially, but look at how small it is! And yes, costs keep going down but it will take forever before it's competitive with coal and nuclear. Forever's come and gone. Oil and gas went up in price. Exponential growth generated a nice experience curve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_c…

Alternative energy is not 25% of German production because it is competitive. They are forcing it through, in spite of the fact that it is not competitive.

The tax breaks were set to go down on a schedule. It would be nice if the same were true for oil and gas. Right now, those subsidies for renewables are only creating a more even playing field.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#88

Post by lispm »

zenon wrote: post #27

According to the CIA World Factbook, Germany consumed 545 billion kWh of electrical energy in 2008. 67.9 billion kWh is only 12.5% of that. I suppose they import a lot of their electrical energy? Also, electrical energy consumption is only a small fraction of total energy consumption (about 4 trillion kWh for Germany in 2007 according to Wikipedia.).

67.9 TWh in a HALF year.

Germany is a net exporter of electricity.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#89

Post by danielharan »

ThomPete wrote: post #78
danielharan wrote: post #72

There's a lesson here for startup folks. Years ago, people said renewables wouldn't ever amount to much. Sure, it's growing exponentially, but look at how small it is! And yes, costs keep going down but it will take forever before it's competitive with coal and nuclear. Forever's come and gone. Oil and gas went up in price. Exponential growth generated a nice experience curve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_c…

As someone else said here a while back "The current alternative energies are linear solutions to an exponential problem." I have another lesson. 15 years ago before anyone knew it existed. Denmark invested heavily in wind. It created one of the biggest windmill companies in the world. It did all the right things. Took it to the stock market allowed normal people to invest in it, created lots of new jobs and the stock…

linear solution? Please explain. Wind and solar are growing double digits per year... how is that not exponential?

If you're taking about Vestas, it's still worth $5 Billion, going up or down depending on the results of big sales. That share price was worth 20X more is a disappointment to investors, but it does not prove that no one can make it in that sector.

Re: Renewables now account for 25% of German energy production

#90

Post by rayiner »

anewguy wrote: post #80
rayiner wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In related news: American electricity is artificially cheap.

The United States has an abundance of cheap natural gas and the will to drill it. Incidentally, substituting gas for coal has allowed the US to lead the world in reducing CO2 emissions[1]. Yes, that's right, the US has reduced its emissions more than any other country in the last five years, thanks to technical innovations that have lowered the price of natural gas. [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/…

It's not gas, it's coal. Coal accounts for half of US electric production, versus a negligible amount of French production.

Coal, however, is only seemingly cheap. Most of the actual costs of coal are externalized, and not seen at the meter. Rather, they show up at the doctor's office:

http://solar.gwu.edu/index_files/Resources_files/epstein_ful...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2009/03/12/hiding-the-costs-of-c...

The Princeton professor in the second article estimates that accounting for the externalities of coal would more than triple the meter price of coal power. The Harvard study in the first article estimates a somewhat greater cost based on looking at a wider range of factors.

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