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DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

theatlantic.com

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Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#871

Post by cryptonector »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #814
swat535 wrote: post #587

Setting politics aside for a moment, I find it fascinating that an audit of this scale is taking place within the government. Has there ever been a historical precedent where an external agency thoroughly reviewed all departments, published its findings for the public, and then based decisions on that analysis? Is it really possible to root out governmental fraud using this approach? Fraud and theft exist at every le…

Lets assume for a minute that what's going on is a good faith comprehensive audit of these agencies. (It's not, but lets just say it is.) 1) How long do you think it takes to perform a comprehensive audit of an agency in order to accurately determine waste, corruption and fraud. If you've ever audited a large corporation, you know what that takes -- it is not something you whip up in a week or two. 2) Who do you thin…

Presumably Elon and hist staff were planning this and -maybe?- training for this for months, perhaps since before the election.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#872

Post by Gormo »

ffsm8 wrote: post #251
glutamate wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't know Max Weber was lurking on HN.

It's true if you're ignoring the no-true-scottman fallacy. Bureaucracy doesn't have to be to the detriment of society. As a matter of fact, it can potentially put breaks on the worst exploitative behavior. But over time... It has the potential to grow too much with bad legislation, effectively making the positive potential into a very real negative that stifles unnecessarily.

> Bureaucracy doesn't have to be to the detriment of society.

Bureaucracy is an organizational model that reflects human intentions and choices, just like every other organizational model in society.

Attributing specific moral inclinations to an organizational model is as absurd as attributing them to any other tool. Debating whether bureaucracies per se have good or bad intentions is as ridiculous as debating whether handwritten documents convey better or worse intentions than printed ones.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#873

Post by babycheetahbite »

theultdev wrote: post #717
WesleyJohnson wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in the Project 2025 playbook. They're trying to overwhelm everyone so you can't possible keep track of all they're doing. Store security could handle one shoplifter at a time; but when you have a riot and mass looting - you have fewer options and often just step aside and let them loot. Then deal with the mess later. Also - he's a narcissist and he wants all the credit. Also - he's a wannabe dictator, and on his…

Not related to Project 2025, and they have countless times said they aren't associated with that project. But yes, "Flood the Zone" is the strategy to combat Democrat's media and court strategies. It was started by Steve Bannon in 2018, but expanded massively under Stephen Miller. The rest of your post is just hysteria so I won't comment on that.

I'm trying to sort out if there is a particular political bent to the HN crowd.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#874

Post by dang »

frigg wrote: post #153

[flagged]

Nationalistic flamewar isn't ok here, regardless of which nation you have a problem with or how right you are or you feel you are.

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN generally. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

(Fortunately your earlier comment history seems fine, so this should be easy to fix.)

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#875

Post by skizm »

cryptonector wrote: post #858
skizm wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is part of the point. "As hire As. Bs hire Cs." A-tier folks want to work with the best, B-tier folks want to work with lackeys that will do their bidding. It's pretty clear there's no A-tier folks in charge at the moment.

Yes, Elon hires Cs. eyeroll

It is pretty well known Elon companies pay shit and churn through young engineers willing to work long hours for no overtime fueled by “passion”. It’s why he is pushing for more H1B1s. He wants desperate people worried about being deported if they lose their job.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#876

Post by discreteevent »

jart wrote: post #862
simpaticoder wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked with older governmental systems, and chances are they are running a wide variety of systems, some of which, the oldest and most critical, are probably written in COBOL running on IBM mainframe hardware. In those environments, there is no real distinction between "database" and "application". COBOL systems are very file- and batch-oriented, and are "monolithic" in the extremist sense. The technology itself…

[flagged]

>They don't even know how to build a website that works.

What percentage of people who know how to make a "website" do you think could make an automated tax system?

>the tech industry has been the beating heart of this country

Agriculture? Construction? The heart means something without which you can't function. How did people in the 1950s survive?

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#877

Post by simpaticoder »

skissane wrote: post #867
simpaticoder wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked with older governmental systems, and chances are they are running a wide variety of systems, some of which, the oldest and most critical, are probably written in COBOL running on IBM mainframe hardware. In those environments, there is no real distinction between "database" and "application". COBOL systems are very file- and batch-oriented, and are "monolithic" in the extremist sense. The technology itself…

> The technology itself makes it impossible to give read only access to such systems. This isn't true. Mainframe COBOL systems commonly store data in VSAM files, or DB2, or IMS, or sometimes some more obscure non-IBM database (e.g. CA/Broadcom's Datacom/DB or IDMS, or Software AG's ADABAS). But whichever one they use, there are multiple ways of granting read-only access. For example, if it is VSAM, you can configure…

>Or, there's a lot of other ways to "skin this cat", depending on exactly how the legacy app is designed, and exactly how it stores data. But, probably this is already implemented

Given that neither of us knows the actual systems in question, what is more likely, that it's a well-designed system or one that has organically accreted over time? It seems like you tend to believe the former, and I the latter. I suppose my view is based on the fact that, like in statmech, you enumerate all possible systems that can do a particular job, the vast majority of those solutions will not have any organizing principle and will not be amenable to surgical analysis or change.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#878

Post by cryptonector »

drowsspa wrote: post #18

I find it wild that apparently there is no law onto which government workers can cling to refuse these requests. Is it all just based on conventions, goodwill and culture?

The Constitution vest all executive authority on the president. The president can delegate that authority. That's what all is happening here. Within the executive branch the president has practically total power, hardly if at all possible to constrain by statute, and that's by design in the Constitution.

The president needs the Senate's "advice and consent" to hire principal officers, and does not need the Senate's "advice and consent" for certain other officers as specified by statute. The US Digital Service ("DOGE") is an agency where he did not need the Senate's advice and consent.

The president does NOT need the Senate's advice and consent to fire anyone in the executive branch. For principal officers this was established by the failed impeachment of Andrew Johnson for firing a confirmed cabinet secretary nominated by Lincoln. For other officers this was established by judicial precedent fairly recently when Biden terminated two Trump appointees to minor offices and they sued (and lost).

Similarly the president needs the Senate's advice and consent to enter into treaties. The Constitution is silent as to terminating Senate-confirmed executive officers, officers whose appointments did not require Senate confirmation, or treaties (abrogation). It's essentially settled law that the president does not require the Senate's advice and consent for any of those kinds of terminations.

Therefore, under the Constitution and the political and binding judicial precedents, there can be no law "onto which government workers can cling to refuse these requests."

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#879

Post by cryptonector »

femto wrote: post #183
InsideOutSanta wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are laws, but you will get fired if you try to follow them, and lawsuits to remedy that take time. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/usaid-sec...

Is it true to say that in practise there are no laws here? If anyone in DOGE breaks the law, can't the President just issue a blanket pardon? If the President himself breaks the law, he argues that it was in the course of his official duties [1]. [1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf

Yes, that is always true. It usually doesn't happen. Mainly because DoJ usually doesn't look. Congress can perform oversight and impeach if need be.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#880

Post by neoromantique »

skissane wrote: post #867
simpaticoder wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked with older governmental systems, and chances are they are running a wide variety of systems, some of which, the oldest and most critical, are probably written in COBOL running on IBM mainframe hardware. In those environments, there is no real distinction between "database" and "application". COBOL systems are very file- and batch-oriented, and are "monolithic" in the extremist sense. The technology itself…

> The technology itself makes it impossible to give read only access to such systems. This isn't true. Mainframe COBOL systems commonly store data in VSAM files, or DB2, or IMS, or sometimes some more obscure non-IBM database (e.g. CA/Broadcom's Datacom/DB or IDMS, or Software AG's ADABAS). But whichever one they use, there are multiple ways of granting read-only access. For example, if it is VSAM, you can configure…

This implies good faith actor, which is not the case.
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