The Disappointing Surprise From Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#91

Post by jopt » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 8:23 PM UTC

Lets not get of topic: A new version of the software refuses to read the old version's data.

It's unworthy of a modern day app, especially a non-third-party app.

It's especially unfortunate that this upgrade is bundled with a larger OS upgrade. Likewise that a proprietary format was used for the data.

This falls short of the integrated experience and "just works" attitude that Apple prizes itself on.

Backward compatibility has never been a strength of Apple's. Floppy, Classic, PowerPC, and recently optical discs have fallen to the wayside.

The data is not deleted. That's significant especially in principle.

This has little to do with other policies of Apple, such as their "control the user experience" attitude. Nothing about their policy prohibits handling this better.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#92

Post by icebraining » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 8:24 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #70

I don't have a lot of sympathy for her. 1. She could have read up on what was changing with ML. 2. She could/should have a backup of her data, especially before an OS upgrade. 3. Her data wasn't rendered "unusable" or "lost" it was left where the old RSS client kept it. 4. Her real beef seems to be that she lost the RSS functionality and wasn't told about it. For all of the commentators saying that Apple should have…

How is using a functionality that comes with the OS, and then upgrading the OS an "edge case"?

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#93

Post by icebraining » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 8:32 PM UTC

prodigal_erik wrote: post #90

shpoonj wrote: post #14

If you don't like a product, don't use it. If you don't properly research a product, don't complain about its features. Do some research next time. Take responsibility for your actions instead of blaming others. These are elementary principles.

This is interacting with one's tools as a human being. But Apple's customers are self-selected to want to avoid that responsibility.

The fact that she should have done that is completely irrelevant to whether Apple should have provided a way to export her data, much like you can't just run over a pedestrian on a crosswalk just because he forgot to look both ways.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#94

Post by greedo » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 8:41 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #92

greedo wrote: post #70

I don't have a lot of sympathy for her. 1. She could have read up on what was changing with ML. 2. She could/should have a backup of her data, especially before an OS upgrade. 3. Her data wasn't rendered "unusable" or "lost" it was left where the old RSS client kept it. 4. Her real beef seems to be that she lost the RSS functionality and wasn't told about it. For all of the commentators saying that Apple should have…

How is using a functionality that comes with the OS, and then upgrading the OS an "edge case"?

Imagine that Apple decided in the next OSX release to discontinue Safari. Would Apple need to include a utility for users to export their bookmarks/cookies etc before upgrading?

She's a developer, a self-proclaimed "Apple fan girl" but she didn't read up the release notes for ML.

The world changes, features come and go. Expecting them to stay static or to provide you with with air bags in case of impact is unrealistic.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#95

Post by smsm42 » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 8:58 PM UTC

"THERE were my RSS feeds! They weren’t deleted at all, just left in an unusable, unreadable format no app could use." - this is the most important part I think. Many software vendors - and Apple is definitely one of the most prominent in this regard - think that if they need to store user data, it's completely OK to store it in undocumented non-standard way without any possibility of export. Of course, that enhances vendor lock-in, so why not? But the users should be aware that inevitably will lead to stories like this - my software vendor screwed me over and I have no way to recover my data now! Fortunately, in this case there were third-party tool that were able to export the data - but in many cases the same vendor would fight tooth and nail with such tool vendors to shut them down for "copyright", "patent protection" and whatever else reasons.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#96

Post by 5teev » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 8:59 PM UTC

msabalau wrote: post #65

5teev wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this be the Steve Jobs who ditched floppy disk drives when people still had piles of disks around, and Firewire ports when people still had plenty of devices requiring them, etc.?

If I buy a new computer, I hopefully understand what features it has and lacks. It is another thing altogether for a operating system upgrade to purposefully destroy user data.

As the article indicates, the data wasn't destroyed, just obscured. Maybe equivalent for some users, but somewhat overstating things, especially here.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#97

Post by kristiandupont » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 9:02 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #94

icebraining wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is using a functionality that comes with the OS, and then upgrading the OS an "edge case"?

Imagine that Apple decided in the next OSX release to discontinue Safari. Would Apple need to include a utility for users to export their bookmarks/cookies etc before upgrading? She's a developer, a self-proclaimed "Apple fan girl" but she didn't read up the release notes for ML. The world changes, features come and go. Expecting them to stay static or to provide you with with air bags in case of impact is unrealisti…

I actually don't think that would be unreasonable at all! Somebody might have important stuff in there, even if most people don't use it.

I didn't know that this feature was removed. I don't know where the release notes that you refer to are to be found, but this page http://www.apple.com/osx/whats-new/features.html doesn't mention it and neither did the two articles I read before upgrading. I wasn't using it so it doesn't matter to me but the more general point that I should check whether features that I rely on still exist doesn't make much sense. Of course, features are removed from time to time as they should be, but I do think that if that means removing data that I have created, I should have a warning or a way to export my data.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#98

Post by _nist » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 9:03 PM UTC

Honestly, I could see this coming a mile away. I've always distrusted Apple for a variety of reasons. Probably more than Microsoft.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#99

Post by smsm42 » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 9:05 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #44

javajosh wrote: post #25

In a word Amber, yes, of course you are right to feel violated. Apple removed your data without your consent. The fact that you were able to recover it is impressive, and far beyond the ordinary user. The fact that you are in the minority because you used a tool and technology (RSS) that is passe if not unpopular, should be no excuse to ignore this kind of treatment. That feed collection was your data, and Apple had…

> The fact that you are in the minority because you used a tool and technology (RSS) that is passe if not unpopular, should be no excuse to ignore this kind of treatment. It seems like just yesterday my NASA rocket scientist friend was asking me what this new-fangled RSS thing was. I explained, and his response was, "So they just reimplemented USENET?"

Looks like your explanation of RSS was not entirely successful, as RSS has very little in common with Usenet except for the fact that they both deliver information using pull model. RSS resources are individual data streams, Usenet groups are unstructured assemblies of multiple messages. RSS resources are delivered automatically by site aggregators, Usenet messages have to be posted. Usenet needs NNTP servers that store huge amounts of data, RSS doesn't need anything but reader. Usenet is centralized, RSS is distributed.

In short, calling RSS "reimplementation of Usenet" makes very little sense.

Re: The Disappointing Surprise From Apple

#100

Post by _nist » Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 9:05 PM UTC

jaysonelliot wrote: post #60

"A computer shall not harm your data or, through inaction, allow your data to come to harm." -Jef Raskin's first law of interface design Shame to see the Macintosh violating the first law of the Father of the Macintosh.

If you read the article, the data wasn't harmed, it was just moved. Therefore, the law wasn't violated.