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Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

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Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#31

Post by j-wang »

crest wrote: post #24
f1shy wrote: post #12

My question is: why we have to be stuck in nostalgia? Why isn’t there today a computer with modern processors and GPU which can boot to a REPL, where you can easily interface with all the HW, for example audio and video? I wanted to do something like that for the RP400. But is more difficult that it seems…

Modern hardware is too complex to understand and bootstrap for a single person even more so as a hobby project. These known unknowns can be a powerful motivation for someone who (partially) understands modern hardware to tinker with understandable systems. Some go down the retro route while others use medium to largish microcontrollers.

I miss the entire Maker Movement moment. It isn’t actually super complex to make a simple circuit board that does some basic things for you.

It’s cheaper to just outsource making the board, but I even made my own simple boards (etched using hobbyist CNC machines). I even used a bunch of surface mount parts with them.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#32

Post by K0balt »

f1shy wrote: post #12

My question is: why we have to be stuck in nostalgia? Why isn’t there today a computer with modern processors and GPU which can boot to a REPL, where you can easily interface with all the HW, for example audio and video? I wanted to do something like that for the RP400. But is more difficult that it seems…

We don’t have to be. It’s just that people like the nostalgia aspect and it gives a de-facto standard with some degree of preexisting hardware to coalesce around.

To have a complete grasp of the software stack, complexity has to be controlled, of course… so the typical offerings are 32 bit architectures with a few MB of memory and an SD card for storage, and if a “GPU” is included it’s usually just another MCU or core acting as the graphics processor.

There are a lot of good cyberdeck options built around the ESP32 and RP2040, for example. While some of these are used primarily as emulators, others run arbitrary code or projects like meshtastic.

I would love to see, though, a simple OS that actually provides a shell and multitasking ability that is designed to run on these platforms, idk if anything like that exists.

It would be super cool to have a python REPL, a text editor, file browser, gopher client, MUD client, things like that running with alt-t to switch context or something like that.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#33

Post by nubinetwork »

jsheard wrote: post #2

I thought this concept looked familiar and indeed it's by the same company which makes those portable 386 and 8086 machines. LGR covered them a while ago: https://youtu.be/6bODiZ5bP84

The same ones that were also found to be using pirated bios code as well...

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#34

Post by f1shy »

richie_adler wrote: post #17
f1shy wrote: post #12

My question is: why we have to be stuck in nostalgia? Why isn’t there today a computer with modern processors and GPU which can boot to a REPL, where you can easily interface with all the HW, for example audio and video? I wanted to do something like that for the RP400. But is more difficult that it seems…

People enjoy dealing with simpler software and hardware as a hobby. Why does it bother you so much?

Is not that aspect that bothers me. I’m on the same boat. I mean: why I feel I was capable of doing things in a C64, that I cannot dream of doing in my new 2000 dollar computer.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#35

Post by f1shy »

anonzzzies wrote: post #21
f1shy wrote: post #12

My question is: why we have to be stuck in nostalgia? Why isn’t there today a computer with modern processors and GPU which can boot to a REPL, where you can easily interface with all the HW, for example audio and video? I wanted to do something like that for the RP400. But is more difficult that it seems…

I can program this thing fully without access to internet. You can understand 100% of the hardware down to transistor level. Modern stuff doesn't have that.

Yes. Absolutely. But let me dream, there is an operating system, very good integrated with a decent IDE, where youncan create applications very easily, without downloading terabytes of cuestionable libraries. I mean like in the leftpad case.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#36

Post by rbanffy »

anonzzzies wrote: post #29
rbanffy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume it's an FPGA, as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1chipMSX Unless the FPGA is very limited, at least MSX2+ compatibility should be available. I would not be surprised if it could do Turbo R as well. BTW, I wonder if there are easily available notebook shells for sensible prices that could fit a small ARM board and a reasonable screen. An RPi 5 or some of its competitors can power a lot of interesting emul…

I have indeed been looking at that and there are nice 3d printable ones and, which is easier but less customizable, very cheap old laptops.

I would expect injection molded ones to be available. There are lots of small laptop manufacturers and integrators that would procure these parts.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#37

Post by rbanffy »

nubinetwork wrote: post #33
jsheard wrote: post #2

I thought this concept looked familiar and indeed it's by the same company which makes those portable 386 and 8086 machines. LGR covered them a while ago: https://youtu.be/6bODiZ5bP84

The same ones that were also found to be using pirated bios code as well...

By now I’d call it abandonware.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#38

Post by rbanffy »

K0balt wrote: post #32
f1shy wrote: post #12

My question is: why we have to be stuck in nostalgia? Why isn’t there today a computer with modern processors and GPU which can boot to a REPL, where you can easily interface with all the HW, for example audio and video? I wanted to do something like that for the RP400. But is more difficult that it seems…

We don’t have to be. It’s just that people like the nostalgia aspect and it gives a de-facto standard with some degree of preexisting hardware to coalesce around. To have a complete grasp of the software stack, complexity has to be controlled, of course… so the typical offerings are 32 bit architectures with a few MB of memory and an SD card for storage, and if a “GPU” is included it’s usually just another MCU or cor…

There has to be a small Unix-like OS that could fit an RP2040 or ESP32. No MMU might be a deal-breaker for a more complete (and secure) OS, but we don’t need all that functionality in every form factor.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#39

Post by rbanffy »

f1shy wrote: post #34
richie_adler wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People enjoy dealing with simpler software and hardware as a hobby. Why does it bother you so much?

Is not that aspect that bothers me. I’m on the same boat. I mean: why I feel I was capable of doing things in a C64, that I cannot dream of doing in my new 2000 dollar computer.

There’s nothing you could do on a C64 that you couldn’t do on a modern computer. It’s just that doing that on a vastly more complex and capable system is intrinsically more complicated.

An interesting experience is trying to run a program on an emulated 60’s mainframe OS. 1960’s and 1970’s mainframes were about on the same league of 1980’s and 1990’s home computers, but a lot more complicated and with much more control over the low level details. It gives an interesting perspective on how software complexity tracks hardware capabilities.

Re: Msxbook OneChipMSX MSX2 Computer

#40

Post by hakfoo »

f1shy wrote: post #12

My question is: why we have to be stuck in nostalgia? Why isn’t there today a computer with modern processors and GPU which can boot to a REPL, where you can easily interface with all the HW, for example audio and video? I wanted to do something like that for the RP400. But is more difficult that it seems…

One aspect is likely that you get a "free" software ecosystem. They can presumably grab a bag full of MSX demos and freeware and drop it on the disc, their job is done. They don't even have to document the REPL (BASIC) since books already exist.

A from-scratch platform has to at least be given some level of documentation to make it accessible, and ideally some software you can show for marketing purposes. It's a completely different skill set.

It's entirely possible these guys are not software people (they did the Pocket 8088 earlier, and you might remember the backlash when it was shown they just grabbed an open-source BIOS and filed the serial numbers off) so even if they made a super-cool machine, it might wither due to missing that first solid software baseline.

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