Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

e360.yale.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 465 posts

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#111

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

orev wrote: post #88

The Yale article and the paper both highlight the fact that EVs use regenerative braking and produce less dust. I was worried that this was a rehash of the astroturf campaign from a few years ago focusing on EV weight and how that was so bad for the environment because of tire and road wear. Unfortunately you need to read through the whole thing (instead of the headline and a few paragraphs) to see that information.

Has someone actually measured that tradeoff (weight versus regenerative braking) to determine where it is an even tradeoff? And surely regenerative braking has its own shedding of particles from all the moving parts.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#112

Post by santoshalper »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #7

I think this is missing out on the big issue - tyre pollution which contains really nasty chemicals that inevitably get washed into rivers and waterways. Also, car-shaped EVs often use regenerative braking which will reduce the amount of brake dust pollution, but with their increased weight and powerful torque, they produce a lot more tyre pollution than ICE vehicles. https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/

Yeah, but you know it's not going to the get the coverage it deserves, since it's not a problem in the US, where we use tires instead.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#113

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

bluescrn wrote: post #28
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #7

I think this is missing out on the big issue - tyre pollution which contains really nasty chemicals that inevitably get washed into rivers and waterways. Also, car-shaped EVs often use regenerative braking which will reduce the amount of brake dust pollution, but with their increased weight and powerful torque, they produce a lot more tyre pollution than ICE vehicles. https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/

Interesting that nobody every talked about tyre/brake dust until it became clear that cars aren't going away as we phase out fossil fuels, they're just going electric. Is this a serious environmental concern compared to the climate/emissions issue, or just the 'r/fuckcars mentality'? Meanwhile, here in the UK, one of the more interesting alternatives - personal light EVs (ebikes/scooters) are being utterly demonized,…

> Is this a serious environmental concern compared to the climate/emissions issue, or just the 'r/fuckcars mentality'?

It’s a minor issue in terms of impact. I see it over amplified because it is a tool for the anti car crowd. It’s not like we are measuring or discussing all the environmental issues from everything else people do in their lives. It’s a lopsided focus on everything related to cars, and there’s a reason why.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#114

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

jeffbee wrote: post #105
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing categorical about EVs that make them eat tires Apart from the increased weight and torque

Torque and pedal response are just choices made in software. The weight is not as important, given the example of the Bolt EUV that weighs ~1700kg and has normal tire life.

> Torque and pedal response are just choices made in software

Yes which is due to the flexibility of EVs. The problem then is that customers are going to prefer buying vehicles with greater torque and manufacturers have little incentive to not provide EVs with high torque.

A lot of it is based on driver behaviour as it's quite feasible for ICE vehicles to be driven to burn rubber or make donuts.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#115

Post by lazide »

dijit wrote: post #106
light_hue_1 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cycled for like 30 years before we had kids and needed a car. The ebikes that the post refers to are a menace and should be banned. Both as a cyclist and a driver. I've almost been plowed over by some idiot sitting on what should be a motorcycle but riding on the bike path. And I've almost had my kids run over. Also, as a driver you just don't expect someone to be going so crazy fast in the bike lane. I've had peop…

I find it hard to take the debate seriously because the default stance of everyone against electric 2-wheelers is not manual bikes, its cars. And, cars are multiple orders of magnitude more dangerous than anything on 2-wheels. I’m sure you’re right that theres room for improvement, but instead of building infrastructure (we literally shaped cities for cars after all)- we would rather ensure that cars are incumbent fo…

Cars are far less dangerous for occupants than 2 wheeled vehicles.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#116

Post by AnthonyMouse »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #7

I think this is missing out on the big issue - tyre pollution which contains really nasty chemicals that inevitably get washed into rivers and waterways. Also, car-shaped EVs often use regenerative braking which will reduce the amount of brake dust pollution, but with their increased weight and powerful torque, they produce a lot more tyre pollution than ICE vehicles. https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/

It's also ignoring the apparent purpose of the study: It appears to have been designed to make the case for removing copper from brake pads. Only one type of copper-containing brake pads was actually worse than exhaust, and that is also the type with the worst braking performance. Even the other types of pads they tested also contained copper and the copper was the main source of the pollution. But there are already brake pads with low or no copper in them.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#117

Post by mschuster91 »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #7

I think this is missing out on the big issue - tyre pollution which contains really nasty chemicals that inevitably get washed into rivers and waterways. Also, car-shaped EVs often use regenerative braking which will reduce the amount of brake dust pollution, but with their increased weight and powerful torque, they produce a lot more tyre pollution than ICE vehicles. https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/

> I think this is missing out on the big issue

These are two distinct issues. Tyre pollution is threatening the wastewater but at least in urban areas where the most pollution occurs thanks to stop'n'go can be counteracted by expanding water treatment (we have to do so anyway to get rid of pharmaceuticals).

Brake dust however is a massive threat for anyone living near a highly congested road.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#118

Post by 29athrowaway »

Cars on roads are like 10% of all vehicle emissions. Most comes from vehicles not on roads, like industrial, farming and mining vehicles.

Of those emissions, the emissions from tires and brakes have the most impact.

But it is imperative that you should buy an EV and charge it with electricity from the power grid, and then take a destination trip that involves burning a giant amount of jet fuel.

There is no logic.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#119

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #110
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in the UK and I certainly subscribe to r/fuckcars as I'm a keen cyclist and never got around to learning to drive. I find it annoying that media outlets (BBC - I'm looking mainly at you!) will refer to EVs as being car-shaped and then, as you said, demonise e-bikes by lumping them in with the illegal e-motorbikes (see the recent Panorama program for a clear case of not making clear the distinction between e-moto…

> However, if we get as many people to use e-bikes or e-scooters, then the size and weight issues pretty much disappear. I still don't understand how they expect to solve the occupant safety issue though. Cars travel at high speeds but have crumple zones and airbags. E-bikes travel at the same speeds but if you crash, you die. And 2-wheeled vehicles are easier to crash. The fatality rate for motorcycles is astonishin…

Some measures can be taken such as reducing urban speed limits to something like 20mph and increasing traffic enforcement so that riders/drivers have an incentive to take sufficient care.

There's also the possibility of creating separated infrastructure to allow the smaller/lighter vehicle riders (e.g. two/three wheelers) to not have to tangle with car and lorry drivers. However that requires political will and infrastructure investment.

Re: Dust from car brakes more harmful than exhaust, study finds

#120

Post by porphyra »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #7

I think this is missing out on the big issue - tyre pollution which contains really nasty chemicals that inevitably get washed into rivers and waterways. Also, car-shaped EVs often use regenerative braking which will reduce the amount of brake dust pollution, but with their increased weight and powerful torque, they produce a lot more tyre pollution than ICE vehicles. https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/

The Tesla Model 3 Long Range weighs 1823 kg.

The BMW M340i xDrive weighs about 1818 kg.

Seeing as these two cars are similar in size, capacity, and performance (0-60 mph in 4.2 s), it is nice to see that the electric option weighs about the same as an ICE car of similar specs.

Post reply on HN