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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#941

Post by unclad5968 »

dralley wrote: post #679
unclad5968 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People will look on Rust community after this and say "Remember that time when _they_ where threatening kernel devs with social media drama?". It's not right but that's the perception that will last. Happened with actix, happened with serde, and now being threatened by kernel contributors. The perception seems at least somewhat based in reality.

There was plenty of indefensible behavior in the Actix debacle, but the reason it blew up was because the maintainer was genuinely wrong and was being a jerk on top of it. The sequence of events was: 1) Issue found by Shnatsel 2) Issue closed as harmless to users by fafhrd91 3) Issue proven harmful to users by Nemo157 and reopened by JohnTitor 4) Issue fixed and closed by fafhrd91 5) Issue proven unfixed and proposed…

I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are you saying that because the Actix maintainer was "a bad maintainer" that the community shouldn't be held accountable for harassing him?

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#942

Post by tcmart14 »

darthrupert wrote: post #867
tcmart14 wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a few reasons. For Darwin, there are a few small projects but I think they are all functionally dead. The benefit with Linux, or even the BSDs here is, sure you gotta port to the hardware, but you should get a good set of user land stuff running for 'free' after that. Lots of programs just need to be compiled to target arm64 and they will at the very minimum function a little bit. Then you can have package m…

Why insist on developing in Rust? I mean, I see how it's much cooler and actually better than something like C, but people are hugely underestimating how difficult it is to change the established language of a 3 decade old project. If Rust is the point you get up from the bed in the morning, why don't you focus on Redox and make it the new Linux? Redox today is much more than Linux was in 1991 so it's not like you wo…

Oh no, I totally agree. I am just saying from the perspective of the Asahi Linux project and wanting to use as much Rust as they can, that is what they are facing and the associated trade offs.

I personally fall a little more on the side of the Linux kernel C devs. Inter-oping languages and such does bring in a lot of complications. And the burden is on the Rust devs to prove it out over the long haul. And yes, that is an uphill battle, and it isn't the first time. Tons of organizations go through these pains. Being someone who works in a .NET shop, transitioning from .NET Framework to .NET core slowly is an uphill battle. And that's technically not even a language change!

But I do agree, Redox would probably less friction and a better route if you want to get into OS dev on an already existing project and be able to go "balls to the walls" with Rust. But you also run into, Redox just has a lot less of everything. That is just because it's a small project.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#943

Post by aragilar »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #380
uecker wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His email seems very reasonable to me (the thin-blue-line comment is a bit weird though). To me the problem are that some Rust people seem to expect that the Linux maintainers (that put in a tremendous amount of work) just have to go out of their way to help them achieve their goals - even if the maintainers are not themselves convinced about it and later have to carry the burden.

How many times will this need to be said: the Rust maintainers have committed to handling all maintenance of Rust code, and handling all breakage of their code by changes on the C side. The only "burden" the C maintainers have to carry is to CC a couple of extra people on commits when APIs change.

That doesn't line with https://rust-for-linux.com/rust-kernel-policy#who-is-respons... (which may be a recent change?)

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#944

Post by inemesitaffia »

latexr wrote: post #620
galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

> I wonder if something like that would be helpful for open source community engagement. It’s called a Code of Conduct. It exists and is in use by many organisations, including several open-source projects.

Very funny

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#945

Post by tuna74 »

janice1999 wrote: post #567
tuna74 wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintainers can't yank out code if that leads to feature, performance or user space regressions.

Entire filesystems and classes of drivers have been purged from the kernel over time. Removing stuff is not impossible as some here suggest.

Yes, but removing stuff takes a lot of time and effort that most maintainers want to spend doing something more productive or fun.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#946

Post by hnthrowaway0315 »

sundarurfriend wrote: post #345
hnthrowaway0315 wrote: post #31

> primarily due to the very large fraction of entitled users I think anyone working in serious open source projects just need to learn to ignore those users. I definitely would have the attitude of "I'm perfectly fine if no one uses my product" and have a lot of fun banning entitled users left and right.

That is why I absolute love the quote from FFmpeg maintainers towards a drive-by complainer: Talk is cheap, send patches. https://x.com/FFmpeg/status/1762805900035686805 I see a lot of FOSS maintainers continue to engage and defend themselves against people who have demonstrated themselves as unwilling to contribute in any way, yet expecting that free work be done for them. I wish more open source devs will keep in m…

Yeah, 100%. Large successful FOSS eventually needs someone like Linus who can just brush away arguments that can bog down the project. It's almost like a military operation -- armies need to move forward instead of bogging down. And in the case of Linux that's perhaps even more true, because the world literally runs on it.

I don't agree with Linus all the time (mostly because I don't have the technical knowledge to agree with), but I 100% agree to his attitude. I hope other large FOSS project maintainers have the same mindset.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#947

Post by Klonoar »

Filligree wrote: post #849
Klonoar wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on there: the serde issue drama would’ve happened in any other ecosystem and doesn’t quite belong in this list, because it was about shoving a pre-compiled binary into the supply chain. (The actix drama was stupid IMO and is fair to criticize the community over tho)

Not true at all. Quite a few ecosystem communities are comfortable with having binary blobs sitting around, and wouldn’t cause any drama over that. Should they be? Well…

> Should they be? Well…

You're so close to getting the point here. ;P

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#948

Post by Klonoar »

OJFord wrote: post #830
Klonoar wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maintainer might mean that, but words have meaning. That particular phrase is overly charged and carries a specific connotation surrounding the idea that police are the sole line keeping society in shape. It’s a poor choice of words for such (relatively) public communication.

These words have the meaning you're implying to at least some people in the USA, it was new to me. I don't know his full biography, seems to be Chinese born and went to MIT, but he signs off 'Cheers', I think it's a reasonable possibility that he doesn't mean whatever politically charged US meaning it has by it.

> to at least some people in the USA

It is not "at least some" and this isn't something to downplay.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#949

Post by reshlo »

account42 wrote: post #897
michaelt wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He needs to stop fighting with the winds he can't control. Users gonna be users, and people gonna be people. Everyone won't be happy, never ever. Right - but it kinda sounds like he's facing headwinds in a lot of different directions. Headwinds from Apple, who are indifferent to the project, stingy with documentation, and not inclined to reduce their own rate of change. Headwinds from users, because of the stripped…

> Headwinds from Apple, who are indifferent to the project, stingy with documentation, and not inclined to reduce their own rate of change. That is part of the challenge he chose to take on. > Headwinds from users, because of the stripped down experience. Users can be ignored. How much you get users to you is your own choice. > Headwinds from the kernel team, who are in the unenviable situation of having to accept an…

> The maintainers in question did not ask for people to add Rust to the kernel. They have no obligation to be welcoming to it.

Their boss, however, did ask for it, so yes, they do have an obligation to be welcoming to it.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#950

Post by metaltyphoon »

steveklabnik wrote: post #821
metaltyphoon wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please enlighten me why is this even a question on a language survey. I take many languages survey when they show up and Rust is the only one asking this.

Demographic questions are very normal on surveys.

That is understandable, perhaps keeping it to “where Rust is being adopted” good enough? What you are gaining by finding more about your demographic?

Is there any technicality in the language that benefits from extra info? I’m not asking in bad faith, I legit want to know.

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