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U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

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Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#281

Post by JoshTriplett »

randunel wrote: post #258
JoshTriplett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should not normalize the idea that it's acceptable within a country's borders either. It's a massive overreach to demand a backdoor to phones within the country. Don't allow the even bigger overreach to move the Overton window and make it seem like it should ever be acceptable.

How is this different than FATCA? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Complian...

(Note: nothing in this message should be construed as support for the US thinking that non-US accounts or non-US income of US citizens should be any of their business.)

There's a large difference between backdooring end-to-end encryption and accessing financial records that are already by design available to the financial institution.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#282

Post by foldr »

kennysoona wrote: post #280
foldr wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is it that you are saying has happened 20 times? Described in objective terms, not using vague and emotive language like “thought police”, etc etc.

People in the UK tweeted something online that didn't break any laws. Police showed up to question them. Many of the tweets in question were around gender identity, but were not directly hateful let alone offensive to the point cops need be involved.

It’s still not clear where you’re getting the number 20 from or which incidents you’re talking about. But it sounds like these are cases of people being questioned by police and then…not getting arrested because they weren’t committing a crime. I’m not sure what is supposed to be concerning about that in the abstract. Maybe there’s something concerning about the specific incidents, but you don’t seem inclined to give any details about them.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#283

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

chrisjj wrote: post #278
micromacrofoot wrote: post #26

publicly asking for a backdoor is like telling a pirate "we buried treasure here, please don't dig"

More like "we buried treasure, please don't dig".

More like, “we buried treasure in any one or more of a handful of viable burial locations, please don’t dig”.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#284

Post by kennysoona »

foldr wrote: post #282
kennysoona wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the UK tweeted something online that didn't break any laws. Police showed up to question them. Many of the tweets in question were around gender identity, but were not directly hateful let alone offensive to the point cops need be involved.

It’s still not clear where you’re getting the number 20 from or which incidents you’re talking about. But it sounds like these are cases of people being questioned by police and then…not getting arrested because they weren’t committing a crime. I’m not sure what is supposed to be concerning about that in the abstract. Maybe there’s something concerning about the specific incidents, but you don’t seem inclined to give…

> It’s still not clear where you’re getting the number 20 from or which incidents you’re talking about.

Eh, I think it's been abundantly clear enough that a quick search would fill in the blanks, but here is one such example: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6636383/Twitter-use..., and it doesn't matter that it's from the DM in this case.

> But it sounds like these are cases of people being questioned by police and then…not getting arrested because they weren’t committing a crime.

The problem is cops showing up at all for people sharing an opinion. The tweets were visible at cop HQ. Sending cops out reads like intimidation which is something cops do in authoritarian societies.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#285

Post by danielbln »

ta1243 wrote: post #277
danielbln wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They all do though. Do you think the government isn't tapping the genetic databases of 23andme and Ancestry? Or the bottomless data out that is Gmail. Or iCloud. Or Gmaps location data. I'd rather not decide who is the worse privacy offender, companies or governments, and best restrict both to a need-to-know basis.

They wouldn't be able to tap those databases if those private companies didn't make them in the first place.

Until the gag order comes in to set those databases up. We need to hold both entities, private corporations and governments, accountable.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#286

Post by randunel »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #281
randunel wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different than FATCA? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Complian...

(Note: nothing in this message should be construed as support for the US thinking that non-US accounts or non-US income of US citizens should be any of their business.) There's a large difference between backdooring end-to-end encryption and accessing financial records that are already by design available to the financial institution .

Why would the IRS need to access my records? Or need to impose non-US citizens to sign affidavits outside the US?

FYI I am not a "US Person", whatever that means, yet when I signed up with my bank account in an EU country I had to sign an affidavit claiming I am not a "US Person", although that designation has no meaning in the local laws.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#287

Post by foldr »

kennysoona wrote: post #284
foldr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still not clear where you’re getting the number 20 from or which incidents you’re talking about. But it sounds like these are cases of people being questioned by police and then…not getting arrested because they weren’t committing a crime. I’m not sure what is supposed to be concerning about that in the abstract. Maybe there’s something concerning about the specific incidents, but you don’t seem inclined to give…

> It’s still not clear where you’re getting the number 20 from or which incidents you’re talking about. Eh, I think it's been abundantly clear enough that a quick search would fill in the blanks, but here is one such example: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6636383/Twitter-use... , and it doesn't matter that it's from the DM in this case. > But it sounds like these are cases of people being questioned by pol…

Were you not aware of the subsequent court judgment in favor of the guy in the 2019 article? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118.... No country can prevent all police officers from doing stupid things at all times, but it’s painting a very one-sided picture to leave out this important context.

Incidentally, the Daily Mail is not a news source.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#288

Post by JoshTriplett »

randunel wrote: post #286
JoshTriplett wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Note: nothing in this message should be construed as support for the US thinking that non-US accounts or non-US income of US citizens should be any of their business.) There's a large difference between backdooring end-to-end encryption and accessing financial records that are already by design available to the financial institution .

Why would the IRS need to access my records? Or need to impose non-US citizens to sign affidavits outside the US? FYI I am not a "US Person", whatever that means, yet when I signed up with my bank account in an EU country I had to sign an affidavit claiming I am not a "US Person", although that designation has no meaning in the local laws.

(Note: this is an explanation, not an endorsement or any form of support.)

These requirements are in place in part because the US wants to tax the income of US citizens no matter where they are in the world. So, they make requirements like FATCA and make requirements on foreign banks that amount to "we won't do business with you unless you impose these requirements on all US citizens (which inherently also means asking everyone if they're a US citizen)".

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#289

Post by kennysoona »

foldr wrote: post #287
kennysoona wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s still not clear where you’re getting the number 20 from or which incidents you’re talking about. Eh, I think it's been abundantly clear enough that a quick search would fill in the blanks, but here is one such example: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6636383/Twitter-use... , and it doesn't matter that it's from the DM in this case. > But it sounds like these are cases of people being questioned by pol…

Were you not aware of the subsequent court judgment in favor of the guy in the 2019 article? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118.... No country can prevent all police officers from doing stupid things at all times, but it’s painting a very one-sided picture to leave out this important context. Incidentally, the Daily Mail is not a news source.

> Were you not aware of the subsequent court judgment in favor of the guy in the 2019 article?

It. Doesn't. matter. The article linked is but one incident. There's been plenty others, some involving public figures. Cops are literally acting like thought police and no, that isn't hyperbole.

The problem that this occurs in the UK far more widespread than it does. I get you want to defend your country but I think you're taking it a bit far here. Denying the issues out of a sense of patriotism is how they worsen.

> Incidentally, the Daily Mail is not a news source.

As I said, the fact that it was a DM article is irrelevant here.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#290

Post by foldr »

kennysoona wrote: post #289
foldr wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you not aware of the subsequent court judgment in favor of the guy in the 2019 article? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118.... No country can prevent all police officers from doing stupid things at all times, but it’s painting a very one-sided picture to leave out this important context. Incidentally, the Daily Mail is not a news source.

> Were you not aware of the subsequent court judgment in favor of the guy in the 2019 article? It. Doesn't. matter. The article linked is but one incident. There's been plenty others, some involving public figures. Cops are literally acting like thought police and no, that isn't hyperbole. The problem that this occurs in the UK far more widespread than it does. I get you want to defend your country but I think you're…

Erm, it matters because the police were required to change their approach in light of that court judgment, as explained in the article that I linked. How can it possibly not matter that the checks and balances provided by the court of appeal succeeded in preventing future police action infringing on free speech? It’s because of this court decision that your Google search turned up a Daily Mail article from 2019 and not something more recent!

You’ll have to remind me of the Chapter of 1984 in which the actions of the Thought Police are reined in by a system of legal checks and balances…

> Denying the issues out of a sense of patriotism is how they worsen.

You’re way off base here. Complaining about the UK is the UK’s national sport. I’m still bitter about Brexit and could write an essay about everything that’s wrong with this silly country. But it’s not a sinister Orwellian police state. If you want something genuinely sinister, look to the motivations of the people posting nonsense about the UK on Twitter.

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