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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#351

Post by aleph_minus_one »

jajko wrote: post #327
darth_avocado wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money centric place. It’s not HN. It’s the fact that doing PHD is only a reasonable choice if you either want to get into academia long term or you come from wealth. (Historically science and research was a rich people thing, and only became accessible once student loans were more accessible) I genuinely considered doing PhD after my Masters degree.…

> And if you decide after your PhD, that you’ll join the industry, you’ve lost out on 5 years of compounded growth financially and personally. It’s not like a PhD gets you more money in 95% of the jobs. 5 years of professional experience beat a phd title in 98-99% of IT job searches, no question there. I would even more deeply probe such a candidate for good personality match with rest of the team and company overall…

So you want coworkers who don't care much for the quality of their coding work?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#352

Post by mnky9800n »

Incidentally if you are interested in doing a PhD the University of oslo has 64 open phd and postdoc positions currently. PhDs will get a competitive salary (typically something like 50-55k USD/year, this is much higher than anything in USA for example), free healthcare, pension, in the first year you qualify for cheap student housing if you have moved from abroad, and tbh, Norway is kind of nice to live in in my opinion as long as you pick up a winter sport and don't mind the darkness.

https://www.mn.uio.no/english/about/vacancies/index.html

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#353

Post by aleph_minus_one »

xp84 wrote: post #326
michaelt wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN has been like this forever, it's not a recent thing. When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is weak, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the cost of living and the worrying job market once you get out. When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is strong, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the opportunity cost and the attractive job market that'll pay six figures to anyone with a p…

And neither is a controversial take, especially for most technologists. Even those who love learning for its own sake will probably find it fulfilling to learn on the job provided they can get a job in a research-oriented company in the niche that interests them, and earning six figures a year instead of paying nearly as much for the privilege of doing menial labor in a doctoral program is certainly attractive. I hav…

> Even those who love learning for its own sake will probably find it fulfilling to learn on the job provided they can get a job in a research-oriented company in the niche that interests them

The assumption that you'll be able to find such a job is exactly the big question mark.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#354

Post by MzxgckZtNqX5i »

mnky9800n wrote: post #352

Incidentally if you are interested in doing a PhD the University of oslo has 64 open phd and postdoc positions currently. PhDs will get a competitive salary (typically something like 50-55k USD/year, this is much higher than anything in USA for example), free healthcare, pension, in the first year you qualify for cheap student housing if you have moved from abroad, and tbh, Norway is kind of nice to live in in my opi…

As someone who moved to Norway (not Oslo) to pursue a PhD in computer science, I highly suggest everyone who might be interested to give it a chance. High quality of life and supportive system and society. Vacancies for University of Bergen: https://www.uib.no/en/about/84777/vacant-positions-uib.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#355

Post by arghnoname »

WalterBright wrote: post #244
arghnoname wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a CS PhD from a good (but not top 5) program and have published in top venues. I perceived my chances of getting a job at Microsoft Research (MSR) to be low (on par with getting a faculty position at a top place) and didn't feel like going through the unpleasant prospect of coming up with job talks and slides, sending off to universities while I'm at it, writing diversity statements, etc, for fairly low chance…

> then you're on your ass My understanding from PhDs in the research business at major companies is that once you're in the club, it's a lot easier to get a position at another one. (No, not me, I don't have a PhD.)

You'd want to keep your network alive. Publish, be on program committees doing reviews, etc. If the number of jobs is fairly static and you're doing this and your area doesn't collapse, (e.g., the AI winter), your network can probably land you okay. Networks in the academic world is a pretty big deal and it's a small world. Some people like doing this kind of 'service,' I wasn't one of them.

If there are general headwinds (i.e., research spending in general drops, which seems to have been an ongoing trend), there is almost definitionally more people getting cast off than there are actual researcher roles, not including new entrants to the market.

As with all things, the better off you do (very high quality lab, for instance), the more places you have to try to grab onto if you get cast off.

My peers from grad school have gone every which route, industrial labs, academia, more applied research-lite positions, finance, and fairly direct software engineering jobs. A decent chunk that started in academia or at labs have migrated into more standard software engineering roles. Personally, I really miss research, but it is what it is.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#356

Post by pertymcpert »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #351
jajko wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if you decide after your PhD, that you’ll join the industry, you’ve lost out on 5 years of compounded growth financially and personally. It’s not like a PhD gets you more money in 95% of the jobs. 5 years of professional experience beat a phd title in 98-99% of IT job searches, no question there. I would even more deeply probe such a candidate for good personality match with rest of the team and company overall…

So you want coworkers who don't care much for the quality of their coding work?

That's a much better scenario than having coworkers who are difficult to work with.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#357

Post by w-hn »

mnky9800n wrote: post #352

Incidentally if you are interested in doing a PhD the University of oslo has 64 open phd and postdoc positions currently. PhDs will get a competitive salary (typically something like 50-55k USD/year, this is much higher than anything in USA for example), free healthcare, pension, in the first year you qualify for cheap student housing if you have moved from abroad, and tbh, Norway is kind of nice to live in in my opi…

> don't mind the darkness

This was weirdly exciting and depressing at the same time :)

What are the chances in trying to go for a non-STEM Masters/PhD (or higher studies in general) in Norway (or one of "those" countries) after studying E for UG and then working in E for more than a decade (in the third world) and having no other experience at all? Or anywhere for that matter? Is there a way to go about it? (Now, this might sound entitled, and I apologise if it does, but without having to pay (at least) tuition for that higher education)

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#358

Post by Amezarak »

mnky9800n wrote: post #352

Incidentally if you are interested in doing a PhD the University of oslo has 64 open phd and postdoc positions currently. PhDs will get a competitive salary (typically something like 50-55k USD/year, this is much higher than anything in USA for example), free healthcare, pension, in the first year you qualify for cheap student housing if you have moved from abroad, and tbh, Norway is kind of nice to live in in my opi…

> (typically something like 50-55k USD/year, this is much higher than anything in USA for example),

This is not my experience (close friend in a flyover state makes 55k), so I googled and found this website: https://postdocsalaries.com/results

55k looks to be well within the normal range of American postdoc salaries.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#359

Post by [deleted] »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

[deleted]

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#360

Post by [deleted] »

jajko wrote: post #327
darth_avocado wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money centric place. It’s not HN. It’s the fact that doing PHD is only a reasonable choice if you either want to get into academia long term or you come from wealth. (Historically science and research was a rich people thing, and only became accessible once student loans were more accessible) I genuinely considered doing PhD after my Masters degree.…

> And if you decide after your PhD, that you’ll join the industry, you’ve lost out on 5 years of compounded growth financially and personally. It’s not like a PhD gets you more money in 95% of the jobs. 5 years of professional experience beat a phd title in 98-99% of IT job searches, no question there. I would even more deeply probe such a candidate for good personality match with rest of the team and company overall…

[deleted]
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