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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#891

Post by coldtea »

rowanG077 wrote: post #509
bayindirh wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not by time, but by weight. The code you write is worthless if you can’t communicate it or what you did.

You are implying that if you can communicate but have nothing backing it up that's worth 95%? If anything code can still be taken as is and understood by someone else. So to me it's always most important to be able to produce anything before being able to communicate.

>You are implying that if you can communicate but have nothing backing it up that's worth 95%?

If you can communicate it can be 99% of the value. Getting someone to write something to back it up is trivial in comparison.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#892

Post by Dracophoenix »

caspper69 wrote: post #591
znpy wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to say that I used to be excited about Rust, but the Rust community seems very toxic to me. I see a lot of anger, aggression, vindictiveness, public drama, etc. I had the same impression. Why all this drama is 90% of the time around Rust people?

Because many of them are still relatively young. There is nothing wrong with youth, but it can contribute to over-zealousness. Also, for many of them, Rust is the first systems language they've ever touched. And that fact alone excites them. Because now they can "dream big" too. But they have bought into the whole C/C++ are by default insecure and therefore garbage. In their mind, no mortal could ever write so much a…

> A programming language is not a religion. It is not a way of life. It is a tool. It's not like it's a text editor or something.

I really hope that last sentence was a joke.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#893

Post by josephg »

whstl wrote: post #880
BeetleB wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the Google example, it's still in the low percentages when you view it as a system . All the manager did was efficiently allocate resources. It didn't reduce the non-programming work - it simply moved it elsewhere.

Not quite. Someone who is in a management position, has good political skills and good connections will be way more efficient at doing some of this non-programming work. This is something that even C-levels forget. Something that takes a CTO 2 minutes to do can take several months for a regular developer to achieve, and I have plenty of experience on and plenty of examples of that.

Yeah. I think the whole drama around rust on Linux is a great example of this. If Linus came forward and clearly supported (or clearly rejected) rust on Linux, it would have saved a lot of people months of stress and heartache.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#894

Post by PoignardAzur »

adamrezich wrote: post #684
PoignardAzur wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people would not interpret downvoting as "I believe that the exact opposite of every single sentence in your post is true".

Most people don't compulsively downvote every post that they only mildly disagree with.

Look, I don't know what to say without just assuming you're approaching this discussion in bad faith.

Saying people "compulsively downvote" the stuff above is already a strong claim that you have no way to substantiate. I think more broadly what you're claiming is that the people downvoting you and anonfordays are emotional and doing so out of political zealotry, and... again, that a pretty strong claim.

People can downvote a post not because they strongly disagree with its claims, but because they strongly dislike its inflammatory tone ("fragile entryist", "Marcan and others like him leave long paths of destruction in their wake", etc).

People who strongly disagree with a post don't necessary believe the exact opposite of its claims. They can disagree with some of the claims and agree with others, or disagree with the very framing of the post.

If I say "we should outlaw all guns because gun crimes are awful" and you disagree, that doesn't mean you think gun crimes are great.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#895

Post by neop1x »

silisili wrote: post #101

Hector, I know you deleted your account here but in the off chance you browse by - thank you for all of your hard work and knowledge sharing on this over the years. Hope you find time to take a long well deserved 'mental health break' and destress.

Yes, I second that! Thank you for the unbelievable amount of work you did. I would have never thought that it was even possible to do without vendor support. You made history, and it won't be forgotten or disappear. Now, please take a rest and enjoy life and other hobbies. I wish you the best!

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#896

Post by kennysoona »

coldtea wrote: post #889
kennysoona wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've stated a fact that has no bearing on the parents claim. Why?

If they've written "many many words over thousands of years" for the merits of their philosophy, they are also perfectly capable to write multi-paragraph goodbye letters. That's the bearing it has on the parents claim. And many did. Why you felt the need to add your comment, is a more apt question.

> If they've written "many many words over thousands of years" for the merits of their philosophy, they are also perfectly capable to write multi-paragraph goodbye letters. That's the bearing it has on the parents claim. And many did.

Eh, not really - "multi-paragraph goodbye letters" here refers to the overly dramatic fad that internet denizens sometimes engage in when they leave communities, and they tend to have a lot of whining.

Those types of goodbye letters are not the types of goodbye letters stoics would write.

> Why you felt the need to add your comment, is a more apt question.

If you were able to pick up so swiftly what the person I replied to was implying, you too should be able to have picked up that I replied because I disagreed with that implication.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#897

Post by account42 »

michaelt wrote: post #289
bayindirh wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Putting my dusty Linux Distro Maintainer Hat on] First of all, I wholeheartedly applaud Marcan for carrying the project this far. They, both as individuals and as a team proper, did great things. What I can say is a rest is well deserved at this point, because he really poured his soul into this and worn himself down. On the other hand, I'll need to say something, however not in bad faith. He needs to stop fighting…

> He needs to stop fighting with the winds he can't control. Users gonna be users, and people gonna be people. Everyone won't be happy, never ever. Right - but it kinda sounds like he's facing headwinds in a lot of different directions. Headwinds from Apple, who are indifferent to the project, stingy with documentation, and not inclined to reduce their own rate of change. Headwinds from users, because of the stripped…

> Headwinds from Apple, who are indifferent to the project, stingy with documentation, and not inclined to reduce their own rate of change.

That is part of the challenge he chose to take on.

> Headwinds from users, because of the stripped down experience.

Users can be ignored. How much you get users to you is your own choice.

> Headwinds from the kernel team, who are in the unenviable situation of having to accept and maintain code they can't test for hardware they don't own

You don't have to upstream. Again, it's not the kernel team that chose to add support for "hostile" hardware so don't try to make this their problem.

> and who apparently have some sort of schism over rust support?

Resistance when trying to push an entirely different language into an established project is entirely expected. The maintainers in question did not ask for people to add Rust to the kernel. They have no obligation to be welcoming to it.

> Be a heck of a lot easier if at least one of them was on your side.

Except for the users all the conflicts are the direct result from the choice of work. And the users are something you have to choose to listen to as well.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#898

Post by xmgplays »

redleader55 wrote: post #353
999900000999 wrote: post #135

A few questions. First, maybe Linux just is bound to always be a C only project. Linus Torvalds infamously dislikes C++, its sorta odd he didn't shut down Rust for Linux in the first place. Redox is on its way... Second, there are multiple types of compensation. I think the author was probably looking to be compensated in validation from others. Maybe if Linus Torvalds, replied to his email the author would be more i…

> Would be cool if Qualcomm hired Marcan Marcan had a whole rant[0] in the thread that started all of this about kernel people being payed by corporations instead of being freelance like him. I'm not sure he wants to work for a corporation. [0] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/c5a49bcb-45cf-4295-80e0-c4b0708...

I don't think that "rant" indicates in anyway that he wouldn't want to be paid for his work(even by a corporation). In fact he directly calls it a luxury. He is simply pointing out that people put up with different things based on whether they get paid for it or not. And that given that the current workflow of the kernel may work for people whose job it is to interact with it, but not necessarily for people who aren't being paid.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#899

Post by roenxi »

jfim wrote: post #884
roenxi wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also worth being aware of Robert Kagen's adult development model [0] or something similar; that gives people a framework to go from "humans seem" to some actual percentages and capabilities. Spoiler, but approximately 66% of the adult population make do without being able to maintain their own perspective independently of what their social circle tells them it is. I imagine that would make it extremely challenging to…

That's pretty fascinating, thanks for sharing it! It's a pretty compelling explanation as to why some people seem to be completely unable to logically explain their reasoning for certain beliefs and just fall back to "well it should be so because everybody says so."

Ta. I learned about it from my favourite HN comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40856578) and have spent the last 6 months wondering why people don't bring it up more. It may just be a model but it has much explanatory power for why there seem to be so many "stupid" people around. I don't really have the word to describe them; people who are technically reasonable but not convinced by arguments or evidence.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#900

Post by mschuster91 »

xorcist wrote: post #885
mschuster91 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was clear that this will end up this way the moment marcan started ranting on social media about having to send kernel patches via e-mails. Collaborating on software development is a social activity and stuff like convincing maintainers to trust you and your approach is just as important part of it (if not more important) as writing code. Yeah but FFS using email for patches when there are so much better ways of…

It's an interesting phenomenon where people keep coming out of the woodwork and criticize the most successful software development project in history for doing it wrong. They're not micro kernel! They're not TDD! They're not C++! They're not CVS! Not SVN! Not SCRUM! Not Gitlab! Yet the project marches on, with a nebulous vision of doing a really useful kernel for everyone. Had they latched on any of the armchain expe…

> Yet the project marches on, with a nebulous vision of doing a really useful kernel for everyone.

The question is - how long will it march on? The lack of new developers for Linux has been a consistent topic for years now. Linus himself isn't getting younger, and the same goes for Greg KH, Ted Ts'o and other influential leads.

When the status quo scares off too many potential newcomers, eventually the project will either wither or too inexperienced people drive the project against a wall.

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