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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#321

Post by interludead »

yodsanklai wrote: post #101

As usual, lot of PhD bashing in the comments. My experience was generally positive. The good things 1. I had mostly fun doing it. Being paid to learn things is great. 2. I got to work in different countries, and travel to many places 3. I was able to have more than one career. PhD + academia, before switching to industry. Gave me more perspectives. 4. I did learn a few things and skills (public speaking, I learned a…

So many people love doing research but find the actual academic career path miserable. I think it's a shame, because it pushes a lot of talented people out.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#322

Post by interludead »

jccalhoun wrote: post #45

As someone with a phd and is a professor at a community college, with the current governmental chaos there's no way I would recommend anyone starting a phd in the USA. In addition to the poor pay (and I was in the department of communication and I distinctly remember fellow grad students in stem complaining about their pay... which was literally double mine), there is also the fact that no one knows what is going to…

I totally get the "just hanging on" mindset. A lot of people I know in academia say the same

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#323

Post by arkh »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research

Then you need a stable situation first. Not everyone can choose to spend years badly paid while accruing debt from tuition and renting in a high cost area.

You read like a privileged person who comes from money or won the lottery.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#324

Post by jajko »

zeroq wrote: post #318

In Elbonia people have to play a game to stay in academia. Every year you have to accumulate enough points. The main source of points are publications. But they're not valued based on the gravitas of your writing, rather than which publisher is willing to publish. And these valuation seems to be random. Senior people will often offer to open doors to younger reserchers in exchange for their name to be put in their pa…

Its as if one can't escape human nature when environment has wrong goals set for rewards. The fact that 'more noble' goals may be pursued doesn't matter that much in long run.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#325

Post by zeroq »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

I agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand, as someone who made some dubious career choices in his life I'll tell you that I really regret that no one told me to treat my life as a video game and plan out how to spend my points on the skill tree.

I always thought I was lucky because I was into computers and was able to do what I actually enjoyed, but when I look back I don't think working for Wikia for $850 a month was the best choice I could have made.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#326

Post by xp84 »

michaelt wrote: post #206
NeutralCrane wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living and income inequality are soaring. Huge swaths of the population are living in crippling debt because they believed that it was worth it to spend tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars to go to school and learn about what interested them, only to find out it didn’t lead anywhere and they have hamstrung themselves financially for the rest of their lives. It shouldn’t be surprising that people ar…

HN has been like this forever, it's not a recent thing. When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is weak, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the cost of living and the worrying job market once you get out. When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is strong, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the opportunity cost and the attractive job market that'll pay six figures to anyone with a p…

And neither is a controversial take, especially for most technologists. Even those who love learning for its own sake will probably find it fulfilling to learn on the job provided they can get a job in a research-oriented company in the niche that interests them, and earning six figures a year instead of paying nearly as much for the privilege of doing menial labor in a doctoral program is certainly attractive.

I have no hate for PhDs or aspiring ones, but I can't relate to someone who would brush past either of those two arguments you cited without some very strong counterarguments on how they will work out supporting themselves and paying back those enormous loans.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#327

Post by jajko »

darth_avocado wrote: post #257
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money centric place. It’s not HN. It’s the fact that doing PHD is only a reasonable choice if you either want to get into academia long term or you come from wealth. (Historically science and research was a rich people thing, and only became accessible once student loans were more accessible) I genuinely considered doing PhD after my Masters degree.…

> And if you decide after your PhD, that you’ll join the industry, you’ve lost out on 5 years of compounded growth financially and personally. It’s not like a PhD gets you more money in 95% of the jobs.

5 years of professional experience beat a phd title in 98-99% of IT job searches, no question there.

I would even more deeply probe such a candidate for good personality match with rest of the team and company overall, ie sometimes one has to suck it up and do non-ideal solution instead of having endless discussions about ideal one. And IMHO folks form academia are sometimes tad too idealistic and need additional 'baby-sitting', pushing them even further into junior less-ideal box. Smart alone is mostly meaningless when not harnessed efficiently.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#328

Post by xp84 »

janalsncm wrote: post #225
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> HN turns out to be a very money-centric place In defense of being money centric, we are not talking about yachts and drugs level money. To me, money means buying a house, starting a family, taking care of my parents, looking after my own health, and overall stability. These are the hallmarks of what used to be a middle class lifestyle in America. If people are getting PhDs to earn more money long term, these are al…

So insightful. The cost of education skyrocketing, alone, has changed the equation, to where it's a huge risk to take on enough debt to complete an advanced degree. A lot of Millenials and Gen-Z didn't get this memo, and still got overeducated - this could mean any degree in a field that doesn't pay well or doesn't generate many jobs. To the extent the degree wasn't financed it's not that big a deal. At least they got to learn something! Now they'll just have to try to work their way up slowly.

But take a person who can't find a job that pays much more than retail, and put them $150,000 in debt... that person is not going to be happy.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#329

Post by Ekaros »

adastra22 wrote: post #310
sno129 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming you don't have a Ph.D. if it sounds generic to you. I think it's really impossible to explain to somebody who hasn't gone through it how much a Ph.D. changes the way you think. Whether it's worth the time investment is another matter, however, which I'll leave alone.

The change isn’t unique to a PhD though. Plenty of people receive similar or better training in industry.

I hope that most people change after 5, 10 and 20 years of experience in industry and think in different ways than when they started...

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#330

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

These here are hackers who sold out, or would like to. If you figure out where the principled hackers hang out, do let me know.
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