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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#281

Post by mjh2539 »

WalterBright wrote: post #244
arghnoname wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a CS PhD from a good (but not top 5) program and have published in top venues. I perceived my chances of getting a job at Microsoft Research (MSR) to be low (on par with getting a faculty position at a top place) and didn't feel like going through the unpleasant prospect of coming up with job talks and slides, sending off to universities while I'm at it, writing diversity statements, etc, for fairly low chance…

> then you're on your ass My understanding from PhDs in the research business at major companies is that once you're in the club, it's a lot easier to get a position at another one. (No, not me, I don't have a PhD.)

I have anecdata that shows that plenty of intelligent, highly motivated, affable people with (hard science) PhDs still struggle to obtain employment of the "club" caliber, even after they're in the "club".

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#283

Post by analog31 »

foobarian wrote: post #260
musicale wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking The academic pyramid was never sustainable. However, for some fields (science and engineering being good examples) there are decent jobs outside of academia.

> The academic pyramid was never sustainable Theoretically it wasn't, or every human on Earth would be a PhD candidate within the century. However there was a period after WW2 where a lot of empty professor chairs needed to be filled and so I believe that people came to expect the growth. So for example you would have the post-war generation push their kids into it, saying "but of course you can be a professor like m…

My dad got a chemistry PhD in the mid 1950s. He said that by that point, it was already widely known that most PhDs would have no chance of landing an academic position. He went into industry and had a good career.

I got my PhD in physics, in the mid 90s. Same story.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#284

Post by analog31 »

lthornberry wrote: post #259
musicale wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking The academic pyramid was never sustainable. However, for some fields (science and engineering being good examples) there are decent jobs outside of academia.

Most academics teach in departments that don’t grant phds. They’re at liberal arts Colleges or regional state universities. True that statistically only a small percentage of grad students will go on to have their own PhD students, but that doesn’t mean there are no jobs for the rest.

That may have been true in the past, but at this point even the smaller colleges are flooded with applicants for faculty jobs.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#285

Post by adampwells »

I got a PhD in Organic Chemistry in 1994. I was a researcher for a few years and converted to software in 2000.

The degree turned out to have a lot of transferable skills - especially in researching and solving problems.

Just 25 years later I am a Principal Engineer in the Oz Telco industry writing Rust!

I don't regret the degree for a moment - although when I went through the degree was free, even at a top tier Australian university.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#286

Post by __rito__ »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

Forget money and being rich.

What about a decent stable life where you are not struggling, and actually can start a family before turning, say, 35?

I don't think it can be supported by academia anymore.

I just don't want to go through 5-10 years of PhD, then two postdocs, and then start a job that is by no means tenured.

And PhD isn't really a place for satiating your unfettered, unhinged curiosity. You have to do research along your advisor's line of inquiry, look at funding prospects, churn out papers at a cutthroat pace, and then deal with politics. Also, you can somewhat easily change a job, but cannot switch advisors that easily. Switching institutions is considerably harder.

If you want a FAANG job, you can get that without a PhD. And earn much more by the time your PhD were to be finished if you didn't go for it.

EE and CS are fields where you can do your research on your own if you are genuinely curious. Maybe, you won't have a career as a researcher. But you also won't be with a thinning hairline, single, and far from financial indepence at 33.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#287

Post by __rito__ »

ohbleek wrote: post #265
palmotea wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Not surprising at all. It's a forum run by a VC firm populated with a decent number of people who are wannabe founders, trying to jump on the latest fad, hoping to win the startup jackpot. And (way back when it was small), I think a big part of the appeal was you could rub shoulders with some VC people and fo…

>I thnk it does occur to people, but that's a choice for nepo babies and aspiring monks. Maybe you've only spent time around PhD candidates at Ivy League schools where people are more likely to have access to wealth, but if you've spent any time at all around PhD candidates you'll find this is generally not the case. As a PhD candidate from a lower SE class, I've found that the majority of my peers are from a similar…

> while the majority of Social Sciences doctoral students are from a lower SE class

I am speaking solely from anecdotes, but Social Science grad students generally have a Rabbi from early on their career. That is, they are favorite students, close students to at least one powerful/influential figure in their field. A lot of favoritism and a different kind of nepotism play an important part Social Sciences academia.

And to be successful in Social Sciences academia, you need a "mentor"/"Rabbi", and also be a proponent of a certain kind of politics.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#288

Post by LarsDu88 »

robotelvis wrote: post #269
ocschwar wrote: post #213

Good. Academia is done growing. We're in a steady state, which means if you're in grad school, look at your advisor. Look at the other grad students who have him. Look at the work of the grad students who came before you, with this advisor. Think about the ones that will come after. Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking. If you an afford to pursue a PHD for the sake of doing the work…

If your advisor is one of the stars of their field, then probably more than one of their grad students will be professors. If not, then probably none of them will. Otherwise this point is indeed correct.

This is more accurate. The productive fraction of professors still follow the Pareto principle or 80/20 rule. And even then, these professors aggregate into the elite institutions making it even more skewed.

To get an academic position, you need to have a star advisor either for your degree or postdoc.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#289

Post by fishcrackers »

sweeter wrote: post #135
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

Why pay an American worker 100k + benefits out of college when you can pay an H1B worker 60k for the same level of education and also have a massive amount of leverage over them?

[dead]

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#290

Post by esafak »

vkou wrote: post #121
marklar423 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters? Everyone I talk to seems to say a Masters in CompSci is useless, and that you may as well do a PhD instead.

> What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters Google will hire you to work on moving protobufs around as an L4, instead of an L3.

By the time you get the degree, you could be promoted to L4 and saved money along the way, so you're saying it's a bad idea.
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