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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#801

Post by zoogeny »

busterarm wrote: post #485
Den_VR wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t say I’d want you on the team characterizing a situation like this, and communicating about a situation like this, as “victim mentality.” There’s a lot of toxic behaviors that have wormed their way into certain parts of culture. I’m not as concerned about bright, brash men like Hector.

You're not concerned about somebody who incites the internet hate mob against you when they don't get their way in a technical/leadership disagreement? The amount of drama that this has created for Linux when the entire situation was being handled in a non-dramatic way is staggering. At its root, nothing about the entire situation had anything to do with marcan anyway and yet somehow he has focused an enormous amount…

> nothing about the entire situation had anything to do with marcan anyway

I agree with you but just a point of clarification. Martin was working on drivers that he wrote in Rust for the Asahi Linux project. Those drivers would utilize the rust API wrappers that were the subject of this debacle. If they were to be included (as he wanted) it would have made his life easier. If they were rejected then his own driver would be made more complicated. So, he had a legitimate stake in this and when he suspected it wasn't going the way he wanted he lashed out.

The irony is, if he hadn't blown this all up, the change could very well have snuck in under the radar.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#802

Post by layer8 »

School-Cotton wrote: post #275
999900000999 wrote: post #135

A few questions. First, maybe Linux just is bound to always be a C only project. Linus Torvalds infamously dislikes C++, its sorta odd he didn't shut down Rust for Linux in the first place. Redox is on its way... Second, there are multiple types of compensation. I think the author was probably looking to be compensated in validation from others. Maybe if Linus Torvalds, replied to his email the author would be more i…

Why does disliking C++ make it odd that he is open to Rust? C++ is uniquely bad; disliking it doesn’t necessarily mean you only like C.

C++ garnered a similarly enthusiastic following in the 1990s as Rust has in recent years. Not only was it “a better C”, but it allowed to build safe and zero-cost abstractions with a rich type system in a way that C couldn’t. (At least that’s what many C++ programmers believed then. It turned out to not be quite zero-cost after all, and exception safety proved to be highly non-trivial.) Details aside, there is a large overlap in mindset between those favoring Rust today with those favoring C++ in the 1990s. And the complexity of many Rust libraries today is eerily reminiscent of the complexity of C++ template-based libraries back then. So I can see why someone might find it odd.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#803

Post by asddubs »

palata wrote: post #201
galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

I have been maintaining open source projects, and really: users of open source projects suck . They get your work for free, but it's not enough; they have to be assholes on top of that.

I would say it's more the case that the users who suck are both the loudest and also seem the loudest. If you get 10 people saying thank you and one person cussing you out, it might still ruin your day. And of course a lot of people just quietly use the thing and are happy with it, and you never hear from them at all.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#804

Post by philistine »

talldayo wrote: post #554
philistine wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that PCs do not usually have the ability to plug into a monitor, to charge, and to connect to a USB hub for the rest of your devices from a single USB-C port? You guys still plug three cables each time you sit at a desk?

When was the last time you touched a PC, 2003? They most certainly do, when the OEM actually supports it: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/thunderbo... It's not ever coming to Apple Silicon on Linux since post-Thunderspy, Thunderbolt is dangerous to implement even in the best of circumstances. You'd have to reverse-engineer and update Apple's IOMMU, write software drivers for the port since it doesn…

> when the OEM actually supports it

that sentence carries a lot of weight. How many millions of users are left in the dust? Last time I touched a PC, the USB-C port could charge the laptop, unless the battery was empty. Then only the barrel plug could be used. It. was. infuriating.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#805

Post by School-Cotton »

layer8 wrote: post #802
School-Cotton wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does disliking C++ make it odd that he is open to Rust? C++ is uniquely bad; disliking it doesn’t necessarily mean you only like C.

C++ garnered a similarly enthusiastic following in the 1990s as Rust has in recent years. Not only was it “a better C”, but it allowed to build safe and zero-cost abstractions with a rich type system in a way that C couldn’t. (At least that’s what many C++ programmers believed then. It turned out to not be quite zero-cost after all, and exception safety proved to be highly non-trivial.) Details aside, there is a larg…

Okay, that is a fair point. I think the difference though is that while C++ indeed mitigated some of the drawbacks of C, it did so while also introducing a huge amount of additional complexity and dubious features, which you could also argue Rust does, but I think not nearly to the same extent.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#806

Post by layer8 »

School-Cotton wrote: post #805
layer8 wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ garnered a similarly enthusiastic following in the 1990s as Rust has in recent years. Not only was it “a better C”, but it allowed to build safe and zero-cost abstractions with a rich type system in a way that C couldn’t. (At least that’s what many C++ programmers believed then. It turned out to not be quite zero-cost after all, and exception safety proved to be highly non-trivial.) Details aside, there is a larg…

Okay, that is a fair point. I think the difference though is that while C++ indeed mitigated some of the drawbacks of C, it did so while also introducing a huge amount of additional complexity and dubious features, which you could also argue Rust does, but I think not nearly to the same extent.

Hindsight is 20/20. It wasn’t perceived that way back then. Every C++ feature had a well-reasoned rationale of solving an important problem. (I found the book “The Design and Evolution of C++” worth reading, although that was some time ago.) The only handicap requiring compromises was backwards compatibility with C, but that was also a major reason why it became so successful.

I’m sure that Rust will continue to become more complex, and in 20–30 years another systems language will likely come along that is at least as safe while being easier to work with again.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#807

Post by snvzz »

bscphil wrote: post #751
lillecarl wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another uphill battle that I haven't seen anyone mention is just how good mobile AMD chips got a year or so after the M1 release. I wouldn't buy a Mac to run Linux on it when I can buy a Lenovo with equally soldered parts that'll work well with the OS I wanna run already.

And some of these Lenovos are relatively upgradable too. I'm using a ThinkPad I bought refurbished (with a 2 year warranty) and upgraded myself to 40 GB of RAM and 1TB of SSD (there's another slot too if I need it). It cost me $350 including the part upgrades.

There's also the Framework option now.

It took them a while to, but they finally offer boards based on AMD chips.

I don't need an upgrade now, but I feel a RISC-V framework is feasible once I do.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#808

Post by dagmx »

SXX wrote: post #417
dagmx wrote: post #59

I really feel for Hector. Open source can be brutal, especially with larger and well established projects. I contribute to several projects as a well recognized person in my field, not at their scale, but everything they say rings true. Established developers often push back extremely hard on anything new, until and unless it aligns with their current goals. I’ve had maintainers shut me down without hearing out the m…

This is not something specific to open source. Unfortunately if you want to be well-known person who works on well-known project you must either ignore all the shit thrown at you altogether or you must be very very resilient. When you react to attacks on internet you will be attacked, often. And while I appreciate Marcan's work a lot he is also partically responsible because he himself often jumped on bandwagon attac…

There’s a significant difference between open source and proprietary software.

With proprietary software you usually have a corporate mandate, a goal etc to achieve. Any new tech is achieved as part of that drive. You can get people on board or not based on that, and once you’ve decided, there is someone to answer to if you can’t deliver.

Open source doesn’t have that. A project can go in twenty different directions at once, you can say you all agree to something and then have people sabotage it without being answerable to anyone.

Does that make open source worse? No. It’s the trade off for being open, which is extremely valuable but it is a very different push in terms of a product.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#809

Post by dmitrygr »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #408
radiospiel wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have used that video as an exercise in how not to achieve change. Assuming everyone is acting in good faith, the presenter missed the opportunity to build consensus before the talk, Tsu unwilling to budge a bit, but most of all the moderator unable to prevent the situation from exploding. This could have been handled much better by each of them. In contrast to the parent: yes, the presenter says „you don’t have to…

> Assuming everyone is acting in good faith Why would we assume that Ted repeatedly using strawman fallacies, bleating appeals to emotion and acting like a victim...all the while shouting people down...evidence of "acting in good faith"? When you shout over someone like that you're nothing but a bully. > he fails to address the concern that a change they introduce would error downstream and someone else had to clean…

> Why would we assume that Ted […] acting in good faith?

Because he has done more for Linux than you ever will. Therefore, he gets all the benefit of the doubt, and you are assumed wrong

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#810

Post by palata »

asddubs wrote: post #803
palata wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been maintaining open source projects, and really: users of open source projects suck . They get your work for free, but it's not enough; they have to be assholes on top of that.

I would say it's more the case that the users who suck are both the loudest and also seem the loudest. If you get 10 people saying thank you and one person cussing you out, it might still ruin your day. And of course a lot of people just quietly use the thing and are happy with it, and you never hear from them at all.

Totally. Though I am pretty confident I don't get 10 people saying thank you for one cussing me out :-).

People become vocal when they are pissed.

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