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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#701

Post by detuur »

diggan wrote: post #103

I don't think it's the first time, nor the last, we'll see maintainers and otherwise really great people being turned off from FOSS because of the massive weight that entitled outsiders and toxic "collaborators" seem to add. So on that, is there any guides for FOSS maintainers out there about how to deal with the emotional toll of FOSS, with a focus on self-care, how to say "No", generally just how to deal with the p…

I have a few projects that I've abandoned because they only made sense as a FOSS project, and I saw how FOSS maintainers were being treated. I love FOSS, I love the philosophy, and I would love to "give back" one day by making the ecosystem richer, but I've not yet found a project that I love enough to be abused over.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#702

Post by Nullabillity »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #455
diggan wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And then he can't help himself. After being so reasonable, he throws shade on Rust. Shade that is just unfortunately, just false? Many discussions online (and offline) suffer from a huge-group of people who just can't stop themselves from making their knee-jerk reactions public, and then not thinking about it more. I remember the "Filesystem in Rust" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q&t=1529s ) whe…

The speaker doesn't understand the audience question and doesn't respond to it. The audience member points out that they shouldn't encode the semantics into the Rust type system because that would mean that refactoring the C code breaks Rust, which is not an acceptable situation. The speaker responds to this by saying essentially "tell me what the semantics are and I'll encode them in the Rust type system." That's ma…

> The audience member points out that they shouldn't encode the semantics into the Rust type system because that would mean that refactoring the C code breaks Rust, which is not an acceptable situation. The speaker responds to this by saying essentially "tell me what the semantics are and I'll encode them in the Rust type system." That's maximally missing the point.

You have to encode your API semantics somewhere.

Either you encode them at the type system and find out when it compiles, or you encode it at runtime, and find out when it crashes (or worse, fails silently).

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#703

Post by dralley »

cogman10 wrote: post #297
LinXitoW wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the point is that the Rust developers have tried literally everything else. If the C developers make it a "Them vs Us" thing, there IS NO ALTERNATIVE for the Rust developers. Linus' reaction is quite literally the equivalent of a parent only punishing the loudest child, not the child that's been silently bullying that kid for months.

Don't know what to tell you. The C developers have the keys of the kingdom. It's up to the rust devs to appease them. When you are a new-comer to an old project a big part of that is working with the current gatekeepers to get your changes through in a way they'll accept. That can sometimes mean doing things sub optimally in your view. In particular, the DMA maintainer didn't want rust code in their DMA subsystem. Th…

>In particular, the DMA maintainer didn't want rust code in their DMA subsystem. That sucks, but it means you need to relocate your dma bridge code out of their subsystem

The code was never in the DMA subsystem. At no point was there ever any Rust code in the DMA subsystem.

CH didn't even look at the patch before throwing the wall up. When it was pointed out that the patch already was the way he claimed he wanted it, he came up with a 2nd excuse, and then when that avenue was shut down he said he would do anything to stop Rust being put in the kernel, period, he wouldn't work with any Rust developers and he wouldn't accept adding a second maintainer for his subsystem that would do that engagement either.

From that point it's pretty clear that all previous engagement was just in bad faith.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#704

Post by ajb »

lenova wrote: post #665
ThatGuyRaion wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not blaming the victims for anything. But I am absolutely saying that you need to modify your behavior in order to get what you want oftentimes. Suggesting that people make even the smallest changes to their lives in 2025 is apparently victim blaming.

I should have been clearer, I'm specifically replying to this statement: "... he's giving them ammunition by mentioning them and complaining about them. It proves that it's working." Are we supposed to not speak publicly about being harassed? I feel like a culture of silence only allows bullying to perpetuate, and puts the onus on the victim to change their behaviour, and not the harasser's.

In general, yes. But in the case of obsessive stalkers, I've heard that the standard advice is to "go radio silence", because their pattern if you ever break down and reply is to think "now I know how many times I need to harass to get a reply" and increase their efforts to get through that count faster. So it ends up escalating exponentially.

Of course, ideally some authority should stop the harasser. But you probably don't want to wait until it gets severe enough for that to happen.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#705

Post by hnaccount_rng »

debeloo wrote: post #683
bmacho wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually they have a device support page: https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support I can't imagine then what's his problem. I don't get offended by people that can't even read . I don't normally call them people let alone entitled :\ Set up a bot that links them the device support page, and problem solved? I don't get it

> I don't get it. I think that might be the problem. It's comments like these that causes people to wear out.

> It's comments like these that causes people to wear out.

No it isn't. You - fundamentally - don't get to control what people say to you. You need to filter how to take that. And that's incredibly hard. Especially in open source. You need to both be able to ignore (some version of "idiots, who can't be bothered to read") and be openminded enough to take weird requests, because they could be the starting point of a new major contributor. The second is optional, as long as you are happy just doing your thing, but then the former probably won't become a problem for you.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#706

Post by FpUser »

galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

>"I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one"

Actually if this distro is my primary / only one I would like to be able to check CPU, GPU, etc. temperature. It is important to know if cooling is adequate or requires cleaning / repair.

In any case Marcan would be way better off having thick skin. Users will always be assholes (well same is generally true about vendors).

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#707

Post by dralley »

finnthehuman wrote: post #697
dralley wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not "forced to use Rust". They are maybe forced to work with Rust developers of whichever subsystem needs to be updated, but that would always have been the case with the C developers of whichever subsystem needs to be updated too.

>They're not "forced to use Rust". They are maybe forced to work with Rust developers of whichever subsystem needs to be updated So if the maintainer of subsystem X can be forced to work with the rust developers of their own subsystem, then that rust developer just got promoted to co-maintainer with veto power. Effectively that's what they'd be, right? I can see why maintainers might not like that. Especially if they…

If a subsystem C developer makes a change and introduces a bug in another driver or subsystem (also written in C) as a result, then you would expect them to be able to help at least insofar as explaining what they changed.

That isn't "effective co-maintainership".

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#708

Post by noizejoy »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #90
jeroenhd wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source attracts some of the very worst users. Often people pretending to be trying to help by "suggesting improvements", but just as often entitled people who want to work for free. I don't think policies will change that. It's just something you have to accept when you provide something useful to lots of people for free. Even if you use moderated environments for user feedback (adding the burden of constantly b…

> I hope Marcan can find a new project to take on that doesn't involve all of this mess. The only way to do that is to never collaborate with anyone else. I hope he'll be someday able to process what happened, why and reach appropriate conclusions. Software development is a social activity, especially with relatively high-visibility projects like Asahi, and it comes with just as usual burden of social troubles as any…

> Software development is a social activity, especially with relatively high-visibility projects like Asahi, and it comes with just as usual burden of social troubles as any other kind of social activity.

Yes.

> The only way to do that is to never collaborate with anyone else.

Not necessarily. You can also treat project politics and social skills like any other technical skills that you need on your team like network engineering or database optimization.

If you can find trusted collaborators with those social and political skills, you can make a lot of things happen without necessarily being very good at it yourself.

Team building has a lot of parallels with building a full stack technology. Or building a sports team.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#709

Post by pseudo0 »

ActorNightly wrote: post #637
epcoa wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like mostly personal problems, and if this is not going into detail, whoo I don't know what detail would be: https://vt.social/@lina/112887550181123672 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W2Vvwg0rwSVb5r4TQ_NmAF8S... They pretty much straight up confirm the identity of Asahi Lina, so enough with the gaslighting that merely mentioning this (and having a totally reasonable discussion on contributor persona poli…

This is @lina, not the same guy in the post. Did I miss something?

Asahi Lina is almost certainly marcan's vtuber persona. This has been discussed for quite a long time on HN, reddit, etc, especially after he started interacting with his own sockpuppet on GitHub.

Dug up my old comment on the issue here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36972907

> The project itself is popular, but HN allows people to talk about the fairly compelling circumstantial evidence that Asahi Lina is marcan's alter ego. Per previous discussion, they have /home/marcan and /home/lina on the same box [0], have the same hostname [1], and have similar accents and speaking patterns [2]. Marcan is free to do this, but it's completely bizarre behavior acted out in public which is now impacting the actual Asahi project. Doing v-tubing under a pseudonym is one thing, but maintaining a sockpuppet contributor on a major open source project and pretending to interact with it is a giant red flag.

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35242010

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35238601

[2] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35238601

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#710

Post by [deleted] »

echelon wrote: post #437
krapp wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the opinions they don't agree with exist on Hacker News, and they do (check the dead comments in just about any thread where Asahi Linux comes up) then it isn't an unfair assessment at all. What is the "it" that you're insisting they "deal with," here? What is the "drama?" Also what value does bigotry, homophobia and transphobia have in open discourse that it must be preserved? None of that is on topic for Hacker…

This wasn't even my point [1], but I'll go there. Turn the other cheek. Ignore it. It's 2025 we're learning lessons from USENET all over again and having to reign in the over-sensitive, disregulated behavior of some people. I'm gay, on the spectrum, and my wife is trans. What certain people in "my" community do from places of relative comfort makes life for those of us in more moderate / conservative-leaning places w…

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