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U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

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Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#211

Post by Angostura »

amelius wrote: post #131
Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

> The worst thing a corporation is likely to do (other than giving your data to governments) There, you said it. If we want to keep data out of the hands of wrong governments, we better keep it out of the hands of corporations.

To be fair, Apple seem to try really quite hard to keep users data out of its hands

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#212

Post by inejge »

hnlmorg wrote: post #188
inejge wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several examples, including blank piece of paper: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62883713

That’s not really the same as what’s being discussed though it’s still troubling. Thankfully common sense prevailed and those people weren’t convicted. meanwhile in other “less Orwellian” counties people are getting charged for similar actions: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/protester-int... Where’s your freedom of speech there? I’m not saying I agree with Met. But I also don’t agree it proves the UK…

> That’s not really the same as what’s being discussed though it’s still troubling.

GP mentioned anti-royalist protester arrests and threats of arrest, you asked for a citation, I provided a link to a BBC article discussing those. How is it not "what's being discussed"? (At least in the context of this subthread.)

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#213

Post by singleshot_ »

sneak wrote: post #206
singleshot_ wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, tech companies provide subscriber metadata (e.g., billing address, real name) with a court order or subpoena. They provide actual user data (e.g., voicemail) only with a warrant. Or has something changed since the last time I requested user data from a tech company by subpoena? Or are you talking about intelligence collection as distinct from law enforcement? Also worth noting that LE frequently has PC w…

This is false. FAA702 collection provides full content. This was disclosed by Edward Snowden; the internal codename for such collection is PRISM. The line between foreign intelligence collection and domestic law enforcement no longer exists. This is why parallel construction is so common today.

I do not agree with your last two sentences but greatly appreciate the quick reply.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#214

Post by nickburns »

sneak wrote: post #206
singleshot_ wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, tech companies provide subscriber metadata (e.g., billing address, real name) with a court order or subpoena. They provide actual user data (e.g., voicemail) only with a warrant. Or has something changed since the last time I requested user data from a tech company by subpoena? Or are you talking about intelligence collection as distinct from law enforcement? Also worth noting that LE frequently has PC w…

This is false. FAA702 collection provides full content. This was disclosed by Edward Snowden; the internal codename for such collection is PRISM. The line between foreign intelligence collection and domestic law enforcement no longer exists. This is why parallel construction is so common today.

Outrageous and (obviously) unconfirmed claims. But again, and as an American whose private data should never fall under the purview of FISA or FAA or any other IC intelligence gathering activities, I don't seriously doubt domestic US spying/surveillance capabilities.

That LE has to feign the need for a warrant should the need arise to make lawfully admissible that which they already know and are in possession of is the most likely scenario. Encryption really is the only safeguard.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#215

Post by swagaccident »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

The next step of this is when you realize that these entities are more intertwined than people give then credit for. The line between government, companies, and people gets very fuzzy very fast (especially on the levels below national governments)

Privacy from government === privacy from companies === privacy from anything else. We need not split them into their own distinct groups, we can (and should) create software, policy, etc. to protect from all at once.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#216

Post by like_any_other »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

> The worst thing a corporation is likely to do (other than giving your data to governments) is to sell you something

And squash unions:

https://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-tracks-unionizat...

https://www.newsweek.com/they-were-spying-us-amazon-walmart-...

And steal tips: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/24/nyregion/doordash-tip-pol...

And make sure you don't block ads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaUv7mwdBUs

Or use "their" products (they retain ownership even after you "buy" them) in unapproved ways:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/nvidia-bans-consumer...

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musk-bans-tesla-drive...

Or catch whistleblowers: https://www.aspca.org/improving-laws-animals/public-policy/w...

These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure I've missed plenty of ways. We also have personalized pricing to look forward to in the near future.

I've also neglected how they abuse surveillance to squash competition and smaller firms. Consumers rarely care about this, but the private and business spheres are not hermetically separate - when there is only one telecom or supermarket or other company left (or just a handful, and they collude), because they've killed competitors with anti-competitive practices, consumers and employees will feel the consequences. When they won't be able to run their own e-mail, and farmers will see supermarkets take all the profits, and be forbidden from 'unauthorized' tractor repair, and innumerable other abuses.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#217

Post by pc86 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #17
pc86 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's reasonable here to differentiate between acceptable and legal. It's completely unacceptable, but the British people have proven time and time again they're more than happy to make horrifically unacceptable things completely legal in the pursuit of "safety."

As with the US, I would not equate "British lawmakers passed" with "British people are happy to". British people are not given direct referendum on this issue specifically, and all of the mainstream British parties currently support the Snooper's Charter.

I'm not aware of British people rioting in the streets over living in a society with multiple cameras on every corner of every street, where police knock on your front door based on social media posts. They seem to accept it, even welcome it.

If the people were strongly against the Snooper's Charter there would be politicians willing to stand against it. The parties do not impose their will on the people, they do and say what they must to gain and keep power.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#218

Post by eximius »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

Others are addressing your point about governments buying data from corporations also being bad.

But also, you think companies like Twitter, Facebook, etc which are increasingly activist and distorting truth and public discourse aren't also privacy threats?

And there is danger of it getting worse. So, your points have merit, but we cannot dismiss the threat of abusive corporations either.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#219

Post by devilbunny »

scarface_74 wrote: post #199
slillibri wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens aren't represented in the Senate. Citizens are represented in the House of Representatives. That's why California has 52 representatives and Wyoming has 1. The Senate represents the state itself, which is why each state has 2 senators. This misunderstanding of the difference between the House and the Senate needs to end.

Who confirms judges and heads of various departments? The House is powerless compared to the Senate.

Without the Senate, the United States of America would have taken a lot longer to congeal than it did. If it ever did.

The popular election of senators fundamentally changed a lot about how American government works - senators elected by state legislators (which was the usual method prior to that) are beholden to a very different pressure group with very different interests than the populace at large.

Now, they did go about the change properly. So points there. But at the time of the amendment, nobody really anticipated the Farm Bill (or, for that matter, Herbert Hoover getting into the positions of power he held prior to his election to the Presidency - where his performance was sufficiently strong to get him elected to the top job).

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#220

Post by regularjack »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

Corporations are the nice guys now? Please. We need privacy, period.
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