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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#661

Post by seba_dos1 »

rowanG077 wrote: post #509
bayindirh wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not by time, but by weight. The code you write is worthless if you can’t communicate it or what you did.

You are implying that if you can communicate but have nothing backing it up that's worth 95%? If anything code can still be taken as is and understood by someone else. So to me it's always most important to be able to produce anything before being able to communicate.

It's more like writing the code is just the first step on a long road. You won't go anywhere at all if you don't take it, but if that's the only thing you do, all you did is the first step.

I have written plenty of code that's stuck on this first step in my life, including some that went to the very same LKML we're talking about here right now. Some of those things have already been independently written again by other people who actually managed to go further than that.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#662

Post by MrJohz »

uecker wrote: post #501
uecker wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think confronting those volunteers that maintain open-source software with arguments such as "you just do not want to learn new things" , "are scared of change", etc. is very unfair. IMHO new ideas should prove themselves and not pushed through because google wants it or certain enthusiastic groups believe this is the future. If Rust is so much better, people should just build cool stuff and then it will be success…

Overall, this whole situation seems entirely weird to me. All this stuff such as Unix, Linux, and C ecosystem was build by C programmers and maintained for decades mostly voluntarily, while most of the industry pushed into other directions (with a gigantic influx of money). It is completely amazing that Linux become so successful against all the odds. Certainly it also then had a lot industry support, but I used it a…

I believe the Rust for Linux project was started by a Linux guy, rather than a Rust guy, and many of the Rust for Linux maintainers have come at this from a perspective of "we are Linux maintainers who want to use Rust" rather than "we are Rust users who want our code to be in Linux".

I think it's important to be wary of simplistic narratives (such as "C vs Rust"). Maintaining a complex piece of software comes with tradeoffs and compromises, and the fewer languages you have to worry about the better. On the other hand, the Asahi Linux team have been quite explicit that without Rust, they wouldn't have achieved a fraction of what they have. So clearly there is a lot of value in RfL for Linux as a whole, if implemented well. And that value is reflected in the decision from Linus that RfL should be supported, at least for now.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#663

Post by tuna74 »

SamuelAdams wrote: post #295

This might be crazy, but why does Ashai and its drivers need to be upstreamed to the Linux kernel at all? Why not fork Linux and call it something new, with the hardware support that is exclusively for M1/2/3/4 Mac’s?

As written in the article, Mesa will not enable drivers if there is no HW driver in Linux.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#664

Post by o11c »

stirlo wrote: post #520
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this isn't the right take. the "disagreement" was a kernel maintainer saying "Rust in the Linux kernel is a mistake and I will do everything in my power to sabotage Rust adoption" (as feedback on version 8 of a patch). The fact that open undermining of Rust for Linux receives no pushback from Linus or anyone else with power in the Kernel is shocking.

100% this. Yes, Hector went nuclear, but he begged Linus to step in and provide leadership (either merge or reject) and instead Linus ignored the whole technical issue with regards to rust being totally blocked. Even now with Hector out of the picture, there’s still no suitable path forward for rust in Linux. No wonder why people are giving up (exactly what the blockers want).

Counterpoint: prior to going nuclear, is there any evidence that Marcan directly tried to get Linus's attention, given the huge quanity of mailing-list mail Linus is sure to get every day?

I only see Danilo doing that in that thread. And admittedly Linus didn't respond (and Greg KH only minimally responded). But even CC probably means a lot of mail for top maintainers, and at that point I don't see anything that would've gotten in the way of "send a PR despite the Nacked-by", which has been done in the past.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#665

Post by lenova »

ThatGuyRaion wrote: post #545
lenova wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's victim blaming, even when it's in reference to yourself.

I'm not blaming the victims for anything. But I am absolutely saying that you need to modify your behavior in order to get what you want oftentimes. Suggesting that people make even the smallest changes to their lives in 2025 is apparently victim blaming.

I should have been clearer, I'm specifically replying to this statement: "... he's giving them ammunition by mentioning them and complaining about them. It proves that it's working."

Are we supposed to not speak publicly about being harassed? I feel like a culture of silence only allows bullying to perpetuate, and puts the onus on the victim to change their behaviour, and not the harasser's.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#666

Post by rust41percent »

rat87 wrote: post #421
thw8419 wrote: post #97

The Rust situation was handled badly. Two languages (one of which has panics and all sorts of version issues) in one kernel are clearly not viable. Linus should have put his foot down and mandated C instead of stringing people along. That of course was difficult in the corporate environment of 2014-2024. Perhaps he was forced to do it. In many areas, sanity has returned, so perhaps we can get clearer messaging again…

> That of course was difficult in the corporate environment of 2014-2024. No clue what you could mean by this >Perhaps he was forced to do it. By whom? Linus is the one who decides these things.

[dead]

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#667

Post by llm_trw »

unclad5968 wrote: post #337
rdtsc wrote: post #209

A person can be in a tough spot personally and then things seem to spiral out of control around them because that just cannot be 100% isolated from professional stuff or other spheres of life. It seems like this might have happened to Hector based on the post. We've all been there and that part is completely understandable. > I get that some people might not have liked my Mastodon posts. Yes, I can be abrasive someti…

> People will look on Rust community after this and say "Remember that time when _they_ where threatening kernel devs with social media drama?". It's not right but that's the perception that will last. Happened with actix, happened with serde, and now being threatened by kernel contributors. The perception seems at least somewhat based in reality.

Never hire zealots who don't share your religion, they may be cheap - or free in this case - but in the long run they cost you a lot more.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#668

Post by debeloo »

Impressed that he endured 20 years of entitled users before burning out.

Criticism hits incredibly hard. I'd watch a friend play for hundreds of people at a concert and he'd receive a standing ovation.

But he overheard a single disgruntled remark from someone which nullified the whole experience for him.

I know he was being overly sensitive about it, but I've heard similar stories from other people too.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#669

Post by huimang »

caspper69 wrote: post #591
znpy wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to say that I used to be excited about Rust, but the Rust community seems very toxic to me. I see a lot of anger, aggression, vindictiveness, public drama, etc. I had the same impression. Why all this drama is 90% of the time around Rust people?

Because many of them are still relatively young. There is nothing wrong with youth, but it can contribute to over-zealousness. Also, for many of them, Rust is the first systems language they've ever touched. And that fact alone excites them. Because now they can "dream big" too. But they have bought into the whole C/C++ are by default insecure and therefore garbage. In their mind, no mortal could ever write so much a…

> But they have bought into the whole C/C++ are by default insecure and therefore garbage. In their mind, no mortal could ever write so much as a single safe function in those languages.

No one thinks this except some strawman that you've devised. No point in reading anything else in this comment when this is so blatantly absurd and detached from reality.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#670

Post by otikik »

oldpersonintx wrote: post #291
e40 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree. For the last few years, I've been saying the following regularly (to friends, family and coworkers): communication is the hardest thing humans will ever do. Period. Going to the moon, launching rockets, building that amazing app... the hardest thing of all is communicating with other people to get it done. As a founder (for 40+ years and counting) I manage a lot of different type of people and communicati…

> (yes, this is direct from stoicism) stoics don't write multi-paragraph goodbye letters

No, the other ones
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