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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#541

Post by alienthrowaway »

ThatGuyRaion wrote: post #323
lenova wrote: post #140

This part of the post is being overlooked: Then 2024 happened. Last year was incredibly tumultuous for me due to personal reasons which I won’t go into detail about. Suffice it to say, I ended up traveling for most of the year, all the while having to handle various abusers and stalkers who harassed and attacked me and my family (and continue to do so). This is _not_ ok in any form, what the actual hell?

It's not okay but he's giving them ammunition by mentioning them and complaining about them. It proves that it's working. When I started getting harassed in 2022 over an ill advised post on a site, the only thing that stopped it was to sandbag everything and rethink how I interacted on the internet.

Didn't your change in behavior also prove that your harassment "worked"?

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#542

Post by steveklabnik »

cornstalks wrote: post #514
steveklabnik wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

gets() was straight-up removed in C11. Every language has breaking changes. The question is the frequency, not if it happens at all. The C and C++ folks try very hard to minimize breakage, and so do the Rust folks. Rust is far closer to those two than other languages. I'm not willing to say that it's the same, because I do not know how to quantify it.

But you can still use gets() if you're using C89 or C99[1], so backwards compatibility is maintained. Rust 2015 can still evolve (either by language changes or by std/core changes) and packages can be broken by simply upgrading the compiler version even if they're still targeting Rust 2015. There's a whole RFC[2] on what is and isn't considered a breaking change. [1]: https://gcc.godbolt.org/z/5jb1hMbrx [2]: https://…

> so backwards compatibility is maintained.

That's not what backwards compatibility means in this context. You're talking about how a compiler is backwards compatible. We're talking about the language itself, and upgrading from one versions of the language to the next.

Rust 2015 is not the same thing as C89, that is true.

> packages can be broken by simply upgrading the compiler version

This is theoretically true, but in practice, this rarely happens. Take the certainly-a-huge-mistake time issue discussed above. I actually got hit by that one, and it took me like ten minutes to even realize that it was the compiler's fault, because upgrading is generally so hassle free. The fix was also about five minutes worth of work. Yes, they should do better, but I find Rust upgrades to be the smoothest of any ecosystem I've ever dealt with, including C and C++ compilers.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#543

Post by pornel »

generalizations wrote: post #486
purplesyringa wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment you linked to explicitly shows that a maintainer does not consider this "okay" at all. T-libs-api made a mistake, the community got enraged, T-libs-api hasn't made such a mistake since. The fact that it happened sucks, but you can't argue that they didn't admit the failure.

"a maintainer" The way you word that makes it sound like "the maintainers" and "T-libs-api" do not consider this "okay". Reading just above the linked comment, however, puts a very different impression of the situation: > We discussed this regression in today's @rust-lang/libs-api team meeting, and agree there's nothing to change on Rust's end. Those repos that have an old version of time in a lockfile will need to u…

The change itself was very reasonable. They only missed the mark on how that change was introduced. They should have waited with it until the next Rust edition, or at least held back a few releases to give users of the one affected package time to update.

The change was useful, fixing an inconsistency in a commonly used type. The downside was that it broke code in 1 package out of 100,000, and only broke a bit of useless code that was accidentally left in and didn't do anything. One package just needed to delete 6 characters.

Once the new version of Rust was released, they couldn't revert it without risk of breaking new code that may have started relying on the new behavior, so it was reasonable to stick with the one known problem than potentially introduce a bunch of new ones.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#544

Post by whoknowsidont »

Avamander wrote: post #495
generalizations wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH that's a level of quality control that probably informs the Linux kernel dev's view of Rust reliability - it's a consideration when evaluating the risk of including that language.

Are you sure you want to start comparing the quality control of C and Rust packaging or reliability?

Your comment misunderstands the entire point and risk assessment of what's being talked about.

It's about the overall stability and "contract" of the tooling/platform, not what the tooling can control under it. A great example was already given: It took clang 10 years to be "accepted."

It has nothing to do with the language or its overall characteristics, it's about stability.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#545

Post by ThatGuyRaion »

lenova wrote: post #535
ThatGuyRaion wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not okay but he's giving them ammunition by mentioning them and complaining about them. It proves that it's working. When I started getting harassed in 2022 over an ill advised post on a site, the only thing that stopped it was to sandbag everything and rethink how I interacted on the internet.

That's victim blaming, even when it's in reference to yourself.

I'm not blaming the victims for anything. But I am absolutely saying that you need to modify your behavior in order to get what you want oftentimes. Suggesting that people make even the smallest changes to their lives in 2025 is apparently victim blaming.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#546

Post by emptysongglass »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #408
radiospiel wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have used that video as an exercise in how not to achieve change. Assuming everyone is acting in good faith, the presenter missed the opportunity to build consensus before the talk, Tsu unwilling to budge a bit, but most of all the moderator unable to prevent the situation from exploding. This could have been handled much better by each of them. In contrast to the parent: yes, the presenter says „you don’t have to…

> Assuming everyone is acting in good faith Why would we assume that Ted repeatedly using strawman fallacies, bleating appeals to emotion and acting like a victim...all the while shouting people down...evidence of "acting in good faith"? When you shout over someone like that you're nothing but a bully. > he fails to address the concern that a change they introduce would error downstream and someone else had to clean…

I don't understand how abusive bullies like Ted are allowed the privilege of being a senior kernel developer. This feels, in the end, like the fault of Linus, for allowing abusive maintainers to maintain their grip.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#547

Post by milesrout »

>But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one).

>And, of course, “When is M3/M4 support coming?”

This is awful framing. It isn't entitled to ask when something is happenint or to say what makes something unsuitable for you. Marcan seems to take every single social media comment about Asahi Linux as a direct personal attack. No wonder he is burnt out, anyone with such a habit would be...

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#548

Post by dralley »

znpy wrote: post #491
ants_everywhere wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speaker doesn't understand the audience question and doesn't respond to it. The audience member points out that they shouldn't encode the semantics into the Rust type system because that would mean that refactoring the C code breaks Rust, which is not an acceptable situation. The speaker responds to this by saying essentially "tell me what the semantics are and I'll encode them in the Rust type system." That's ma…

> I have to say that I used to be excited about Rust, but the Rust community seems very toxic to me. I see a lot of anger, aggression, vindictiveness, public drama, etc. I had the same impression. Why all this drama is 90% of the time around Rust people?

The kernel is not exactly known for being drama-free, and this drama didn't start with "Rust people", it started with Christoph.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#549

Post by Certhas »

s1mplicissimus wrote: post #529
Certhas wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but generic code complicates the picture. The things I saw were like: The documentation says you need a number but actually all you need is for the + operator to be defined. So if your interface only accepts numbers it is unnecessarily restrictive. Conversely some codepath might use * but that is not in the interface, so your generic code works for numbers but fails for other types that should work.

> Yes, but generic code complicates the picture. The things I saw were like: The documentation says you need a number but actually all you need is for the + operator to be defined. So if your interface only accepts numbers it is unnecessarily restrictive. if you really need a number, why not use a type specifically aligned to that (something like f32|f64|i32|i64 etc...) instead of relying on + operator definition? >…

Yes, the second case is a bug in the interface.

For the first case you have it the wrong way around. My generic code would work on things that are not numbers but I prevent you from calling it because I didn't anticipate that there would be things you can add that are not numbers. (Better example: require an array when you really only need an iterable).

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#550

Post by tharne »

nindalf wrote: post #206
diggan wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And then he can't help himself. After being so reasonable, he throws shade on Rust. Shade that is just unfortunately, just false? Many discussions online (and offline) suffer from a huge-group of people who just can't stop themselves from making their knee-jerk reactions public, and then not thinking about it more. I remember the "Filesystem in Rust" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q&t=1529s ) whe…

If you watch that YouTube link, you'll see the same guy Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust". I think he apologised for this flagrant comment, but this email shows he hasn't changed his behaviour in the slightest.

> Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust"

Given the online temper tantrum thrown by marcan, Ted Tso'o's comment seems totally reasonable, regardless of one's opinion of Rust in the Linux kernel.

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