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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

nature.com

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#61

Post by tomrod »

soared wrote: post #18
_hark wrote: post #7

Maybe a correction is needed. Academia has become so gamified. It's supposed to be about ideas, truth, beauty. Too many are in it for the prestige, which has ironically made it less prestigious. Very few true eccentrics left.

Academia is not about truth or beauty and never was.

> Academia is not about truth or beauty and never was.

I feel this idea is tired--like a 1978 Ford Pinto banged up and running on worn out re-treads. Will it go somewhere? Maybe, but not too far, not comfortably, and unlikely to end up where you want it.

Academia started as medicine, math, theology, and philosophy, if memory serves, and has given us so much of the basic research that leads to the applied technologies we have today.

The incentive structures get weird, certainly, like resources on the Serengeti.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#62

Post by tomrod »

glial wrote: post #31
rhines wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for other fields, but this does seem true of computer science. I worked in a university lab for a couple years and knew many PhD students, and most of them were most interested in leveraging the PhD to make more money in industry. I think the issue, should that be an issue, is in industry setting unrealistic requirements for education. There certainly are some jobs where the work is true research and a…

> industry setting unrealistic requirements for education This sounds like a market dynamic to me. If it were difficult to find qualified candidates, requirements would be lowered. Just leaving this here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction

Fantastic thought. Though I think economic signaling theory shows the bottoms-up motivator.

Certainly in the US, the GI Bill lead to a decreased value for high school diplomas for the median graduate. This doesn't mean it wasn't the right idea for the time, just that it's caused a lot of crowding out. I feel like the Elite Overproduction is a good post hoc descriptive theory but missing the why.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#63

Post by jszymborski »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #35
jszymborski wrote: post #29

As is typical on HN, most comments are about how PhDs are of little value or how academia is not what it once was, whereas the article is about how the challenges of getting a degree (rising living costs, slumping stipends) are causing fewer enrollments.

> how PhDs are of little value I see this as being the same as > the article is about how the challenges of getting a degree (rising living costs, slumping stipends) are causing fewer enrollments. Also, as far as I know, this dynamic was true at least 20 years ago, when I graduated. You either did a hard science PhD and hoped to get in at a top finance/pharmaceutical/tech firm, or you toiled away as an adjunct profes…

Even if we define "value" strictly in monetary terms (which is a deeply bleak outlook, but nevertheless) PhDs can be at once of great value and also out of reach for those without the access to the debt instruments required to pay for it.

Of course, much like life has value outside of the monetary, PhDs are a great way to enrich your life if you don't have to financially bury yourself in debt. Notably, this is the case for people who have the good fortune of being born in places with low tuition, like much of Europe and Canada. I pay $4K in tuition and make, after tax, not much less than I was making as a junior machine learning dev.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#64

Post by daft_pink »

romesmoke wrote: post #34

There are countless pragmatic reasons to avoid a PhD, and no doubt both the article and other commenters will bring them up. The most constructive thing I can do is share a personal perspective. I am 30 years old. I am working through my last few months as a computer engineering PhD student. Eventually, it went good. Not great (the world gives zero f*cks about my work, nobody has offered me a job yet), but not hellis…

Another great thing about PhD programs is you generally don’t end them with 6 figures in college debt from the degree. As long as you get the PhD in something that gives you a marketable skill, it’s not going to hurt too much vs all the MBAs and Lawyers I know with a ton of debt and just marginally increased career choices.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#65

Post by lotsofpulp »

jszymborski wrote: post #63
lotsofpulp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how PhDs are of little value I see this as being the same as > the article is about how the challenges of getting a degree (rising living costs, slumping stipends) are causing fewer enrollments. Also, as far as I know, this dynamic was true at least 20 years ago, when I graduated. You either did a hard science PhD and hoped to get in at a top finance/pharmaceutical/tech firm, or you toiled away as an adjunct profes…

Even if we define "value" strictly in monetary terms (which is a deeply bleak outlook, but nevertheless) PhDs can be at once of great value and also out of reach for those without the access to the debt instruments required to pay for it. Of course, much like life has value outside of the monetary, PhDs are a great way to enrich your life if you don't have to financially bury yourself in debt. Notably, this is the ca…

I meant value as in not being able to achieve other life goals due to the pursuit of a PhD, of which many could be due to insufficient funds due to prospects of low pay and high volatility.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#67

Post by jvanderbot »

romesmoke wrote: post #34

There are countless pragmatic reasons to avoid a PhD, and no doubt both the article and other commenters will bring them up. The most constructive thing I can do is share a personal perspective. I am 30 years old. I am working through my last few months as a computer engineering PhD student. Eventually, it went good. Not great (the world gives zero f*cks about my work, nobody has offered me a job yet), but not hellis…

Poetic. I can't do anything else but say you could have passed this off as my experience as well. It changed my life so much for the better.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#69

Post by DanielHB »

daft_pink wrote: post #64
romesmoke wrote: post #34

There are countless pragmatic reasons to avoid a PhD, and no doubt both the article and other commenters will bring them up. The most constructive thing I can do is share a personal perspective. I am 30 years old. I am working through my last few months as a computer engineering PhD student. Eventually, it went good. Not great (the world gives zero f*cks about my work, nobody has offered me a job yet), but not hellis…

Another great thing about PhD programs is you generally don’t end them with 6 figures in college debt from the degree. As long as you get the PhD in something that gives you a marketable skill, it’s not going to hurt too much vs all the MBAs and Lawyers I know with a ton of debt and just marginally increased career choices.

You are discarding opportunity cost in your assessment.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#70

Post by belval »

jlarocco wrote: post #30

As a software engineer, a PhD doesn't seem worth it. It's a lot of work and time, and most companies don't particularly need PhDs. Maybe a PhD gets a boost in pay starting out, but 5 years of experience cancels out most of the benefit. I suppose PhDs can get a shortcut into Prinicple or Senior roles, so there's some tangible benefit. On the other hand, if a company is hiring PhDs and doing research, I feel those jobs…

> I suppose PhDs can get a shortcut into Prinicple or Senior roles, so there's some tangible benefit.

I don't think that's a thing. Some government job will use a pay scale that varies based on your education level, but fast-tracking someone in software engineering because they got a PhD seems questionable seeing as the skillset does not really overlap.

It's a different thing for corporate research labs, where usually you need a masters for entry-level and PhD for the level above.

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