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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#41

Post by greenavocado »

chpatrick wrote: post #20
naasking wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintaining the Linux kernel is all about gatekeeping. How else do you keep out bad code?

From what I've seen this is excellent code, some people just really don't like Rust.

Aside from hatred of Rust and Rust developers there is a bigger problem. The Rust guys are twisting the C developers' arms to iron out API semantics because there is so much behavior and API usage that can't be defined in C and it's driving C devs insane. The Rust people are doing the right thing but doing the right thing is extremely annoying for the C devs.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#42

Post by __float »

cogman10 wrote: post #35
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"spreading awareness about a position" isn't a very accurate way to describe what happened. This is the guy who said he wanted to use social media to create a "hall of shame" for kernel developers. Of course Linus told him to knock it off, that's ridiculously unprofessional behavior.

Yup, I think it went too far. The fact is, you need buy in from other devs and if a dev won't buy in you need to work out a way to avoid them or avoid conflict. It sucks, it slows things down, but frankly making it a "them vs us" is a sure fire way to make them oppose any change you want to make. Public shaming even more disastrous as there's no better way to entrench someone in a position.

I'm not entirely convinced they meant to truly make a public hall of shame.

It sounded to me like a list of "friends who want to get more involved, I'll let you know who to avoid". Then, I read the interactions that sparked that post, and I could totally understand the frustration from OP's part.

Linus being unwilling to take a real stand on maintainers blocking Rust just because doesn't really help.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#43

Post by Ygg2 »

superkuh wrote: post #27
Ygg2 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't an Apple issue. Maybe Linux on Apple is inherently more problematic, but the issue here came from Linux maintainers hostility towards Rust.

[flagged]

> Did you read the article?

Did you read the rest of it?

Sure Apple being not as great to develop drivers, but ~99% of the article is about displeasure working with Linux maintainers.

EDIT: Here is the breakdown by paragraphs.

    | Paragraph # | Tone                                                                       |
    | ----------- | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
    | 1           | History recap                                                              |
    | 2           | History recap                                                              |
    | 3           | mentions Apple and M1 in positive light.                                   |
    | 4           | Mostly positive, slight negative towards Apple not being having good docs. |
    | 5           | Negative Linux kernel development (upstreaming)                            |
    | 6           | Negative user focused                                                      |
    | 7           | Negative user focused, complaints about M3/M4 support.                     |
    | 8           | Negative user reviews                                                      |
    | 9           | Money troubles regarding support.                                          |
    | 10          | Linux maintainers, mostly negative                                         |
    | 11          | Unknown 2024 event                                                         |
    | 12          | Negative about users (demanding more features and support)                 |
    | 13          | Stress about Kernel development                                            |
    | 14          | Negative about Linux kernel development roadblock                          |
    | 15          | Negative about Linux kernel development (Linus leadership failures)        |
    | 16          | Positive about Rust                                                        |
    | 17          | Negative about Linux kernel development (Why Rust can't wait)              |
    | 18          | Negative about Linux kernel development (downstreaming)                    |
    | 19          | Negative about Linux maintainer (thin blue line)                           |
    | 20          | Negative about Linux kernel maintainers (two faced)                        |
    | 21          | Negative about Linux kernel maintainers                                    |
    | 22          | Negative about Linux (disapointment in refusing invitation) and Linus      |
    | 23          | Negative about Linux maintainers (being corporate)                         |
    | 24          | Negative about Asahi, and dreading to turn on Apple                        |
    | 25          | Negative about burnout                                                     |
    | 26          | Resignation                                                                |
    | 27          | Positive about Asahi Linux team                                            |
    | 28          | Hiring proposition.                                                        |
18 negative paragraphs 2 about Apple (11%) 4 about users (22%) 12 about Linux/Linus/Maintainers (67%)

I was wrong about it being 99% about LKM but it's more accurate than saying 50% of issues are Apple.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#45

Post by talldayo »

IshKebab wrote: post #37

Well written. I think the accusations of drama-hunting are unfounded. What else are you supposed to do in the face of persistent "non-technical nonsense"? Linus doesn't seem to care. Definitely a shame. I wonder if it would be in Apple's interests to actively support Linux on Mac. It would make Macs more attractive as developer machines, and I don't see how it would disadvantage them.

> I wonder if it would be in Apple's interests to actively support Linux on Mac

Trust me, we would know by now if it was. It's not.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#46

Post by shortformblog »

As a 20-year Mac enthusiast who knew a thing or two about Hackintoshing, Marcan got me excited about Linux. The idea that someone could just say, “we can solve this difficult problem and make it work, with little external help”? That is the core of FOSS right there, and he helped so much work happen, so quickly.

Loved following his various social feeds. I was sad when he stepped away from the fediverse. I hope he comes back as just a regular hacker without this massive weight on his back.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#47

Post by Vilian »

aviat wrote: post #14

"Hypothetically", what if after Linux and Git, Linus came up with his own memory safe language suited for kernel development?

He likes C, hate c++, allowing rust in the kernel is trying something new, and maybe to attract new maintainers that don't care too much about C, and as he said "maybe it work, maybe don't, if don't we learn"

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#48

Post by tiahura »

alberth wrote: post #28

I wonder how much of this is fueled by the economic model of Asahi. marcan had indicated donations are down, and it's hard to support ones livelihood just from donations alone - especially when they are down. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/c5a49bcb-45cf-4295-80...

[flagged]

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#49

Post by prododev »

satvikpendem wrote: post #29
actionfromafar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Although you don't see those threads, search engines do. HN uniquely has a high page rank and low moderation, making it a prime target for bad actors to poison search results with abuse, bigotry, and nastiness. This isn't low-level trolling, but an organized attempt to destroy lives, including of developers in our communities."

Always funny to me to read something like that. HN has high moderation, one of the highest I've seen on modern fora, only a few steps below r/AskHistorians for example. I don't see this "abuse, bigotry, and nastiness" here and even if there are comments like that, they are quickly downvoted and dead.

HN is pretty low moderation across the axis of personal attacks. If you politely say a ad hominem or racist or *-phobic thing here, it's unlikely you'll be moderated for it, for instance.

I can dig up many such examples, but I suspect the response would be, "of course that's not moderated" because this community has a different set of values than some others.

Moderation is always an editorial action, and as such we tend to view it as strong when it aligns with our own values and weak when it doesn't.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#50

Post by gjsman-1000 »

cogman10 wrote: post #35
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"spreading awareness about a position" isn't a very accurate way to describe what happened. This is the guy who said he wanted to use social media to create a "hall of shame" for kernel developers. Of course Linus told him to knock it off, that's ridiculously unprofessional behavior.

Yup, I think it went too far. The fact is, you need buy in from other devs and if a dev won't buy in you need to work out a way to avoid them or avoid conflict. It sucks, it slows things down, but frankly making it a "them vs us" is a sure fire way to make them oppose any change you want to make. Public shaming even more disastrous as there's no better way to entrench someone in a position.

It's deeply ironic that he's complaining about kernel maintainers supposedly forming secret cliques.

However... this is the same man who made a sock puppet V-Tuber account, and acts in every way like they are two people; even though they've accidentally on-stream shared the system username, shared they have exactly the same kernel version, same KDE configuration, same login, same time zone, even (if I recall correctly) accidentally making GitHub commits as the other person once in a while. He also did this on the Linux kernel mailing lists, where he still maintains the charade.

Point out that's weird, or that it's weird for a maintainer to have a fake persona as a walking female stereotype; and you're the one he shreds and mocks - while simultaneously not denying it. For me, I caught on immediately when I saw the supposed "hijacking" of his stream on April Fool's day, which was her first appearance; and stopped donating. I don't pay people to support stereotypes about women in STEM.

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