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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

nature.com

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#11

Post by krisbolton »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #4

The simple answer is they have low market value and aren’t a good investment for anyone - the student or the nation. Yes we need some researchers but not as many as we train.

I think it is valuable to the nation, some subjects are arguably more or less valuable, but its about talent at a macro level. If a nation doesn't invest in talent through PhD funding, talented people can and do go elsewhere, work in a diferent economy, contribute to a different society.

Obviously, that's only one avenue for talent. Some talented people never do a PhD, they may create start-ups etc instead. But its about fostering an ecosystem to develop and retain talent.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#12

Post by Empact »

Distinctions only hold esteem over time if they are worthy of it. The last two PhD’s that crossed my feed had dissertations on “The Architecture of Whiteness” https://x.com/garrett_rhianna/status/1889609612367700377

And “The Politics of Smell” https://x.com/drallylouks/status/1868782615324770561

If the PhD is losing its lustre, it’s because the Universities took the shine off.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#13

Post by blululu »

The article cites a trend without providing any real facts or information for understanding the topic. I.E. which field are seeing growth and which are seeing contraction. It's a bunch of vague guesses at the cause like 'cost of living' without ever to find and present any facts that could validate whether such hypotheses are actually true. Consider the most common phd is in education, we could easily see a decline in doctors of education and not realize that chemistry phds rose 4%. The effect of the change are very different in this scenario than 4% reduction in fundamental research.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#14

Post by rs186 »

novia wrote: post #8
asabjorn wrote: post #5

If you are high skill enough to do a PhD in anything meaningful, why enter into an open-ended low-paid work contract with a professor with no definite end-date on when the PhD is granted? An american has even less incentive, as the reward of a work permit is not on the other side. Only reason should be that you want to be a professor, research can be done in private companies without this license. 95% of a PhD is wor…

Often private companies list a PhD as a requirement for research roles

There are very few of such roles. Of course PhD is often an advantage when it comes to job application and promotion, but outside very specific roles (think about OpenAI looking for a PhD in LLMs, or Intel looking for a PhD in certain engineering fields), it's more often a nice-to-have.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#15

Post by searine »

Despite the typical tech-bro anti-intellectual comments on this thread. As the article states. It's the money. People need to be able to support themselves.

PhDs are important because they train specialists by giving them the time and space needed to develop that expertise (something not usually available at corporate gigs). The work you do during a PhD has value, much more value than the stipend is worth. Taxpayer dollars spent on these stipends have a huge ROI because they are investing in future expertise. These PhD students are trading their cheap labor for agency over their work. However, the deal has been stagnating and stipends are not keeping up with inflation. Stipends can be low, but they need to support the students living needs.

The job market is always a bit tougher on specialists, because of that focused expertise. However, an excess of PhDs is a net benefit for society. Most won't become professors, they will filter back into the workplace and bring cutting-edge knowledge either directly to their expertise in industrial settings, or laterally to new fields.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#16

Post by croissants »

Empact wrote: post #12

Distinctions only hold esteem over time if they are worthy of it. The last two PhD’s that crossed my feed had dissertations on “The Architecture of Whiteness” https://x.com/garrett_rhianna/status/1889609612367700377 And “The Politics of Smell” https://x.com/drallylouks/status/1868782615324770561 If the PhD is losing its lustre, it’s because the Universities took the shine off.

> If the PhD is losing its lustre, it’s because the Universities took the shine off

Also, circulating particularly weird dissertations for the express purpose of angering people has gotten a lot more rewarding

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#17

Post by rhines »

_hark wrote: post #7

Maybe a correction is needed. Academia has become so gamified. It's supposed to be about ideas, truth, beauty. Too many are in it for the prestige, which has ironically made it less prestigious. Very few true eccentrics left.

I can't speak for other fields, but this does seem true of computer science. I worked in a university lab for a couple years and knew many PhD students, and most of them were most interested in leveraging the PhD to make more money in industry.

I think the issue, should that be an issue, is in industry setting unrealistic requirements for education. There certainly are some jobs where the work is true research and a PhD can be a good indication of experience in that, but a great many PhD-locked careers are not really so research oriented. Requiring a PhD to demonstrate expertise in something that makes up 10% of a job is excessive and creates this system where people do 4-5 year PhD programs just to check off a box for the resume filter.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#18

Post by soared »

_hark wrote: post #7

Maybe a correction is needed. Academia has become so gamified. It's supposed to be about ideas, truth, beauty. Too many are in it for the prestige, which has ironically made it less prestigious. Very few true eccentrics left.

Academia is not about truth or beauty and never was.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#20

Post by Empact »

croissants wrote: post #16
Empact wrote: post #12

Distinctions only hold esteem over time if they are worthy of it. The last two PhD’s that crossed my feed had dissertations on “The Architecture of Whiteness” https://x.com/garrett_rhianna/status/1889609612367700377 And “The Politics of Smell” https://x.com/drallylouks/status/1868782615324770561 If the PhD is losing its lustre, it’s because the Universities took the shine off.

> If the PhD is losing its lustre, it’s because the Universities took the shine off Also, circulating particularly weird dissertations for the express purpose of angering people has gotten a lot more rewarding

“Pay no attention to that canary, this coal mine is perfectly fine”
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