Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#221

Post by a12k » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:48 PM UTC

latexr wrote: post #209

gretch wrote: post #10

People always use the marshmallow test as a sign that the participant can’t delay gratification. But what if they just understand time-value-of-marshmallow. Sometimes marshmallow now is better than marshmallow later.

Yes! I personally find marshmallows underwhelming. If you gave me one or two I might eat them. But if the choice is between “eat one now and you’re free to go do whatever you want” or “stay locked alone in this room for a quarter of an hour and you get two”, the latter is a worse proposition. I’m perfectly content with being with my own thoughts for hours, but being forced to do nothing for a crummy reward when a bet…

Are you a child between the ages of 3 and 5? Because that's the typical age of a participant in the marshmallow test. This is like scoffing a kid not finding something on Dora the Explorer.

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#222

Post by lolinder » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:53 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #66

motorest wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like this article is good, on the verge of great, then makes cultural comments that invalidate the point trying to be made for no real reason. Is it really for no real reason, though? > Like the race or location of the parent determines their childhood? You might not be aware, but different cultural backgrounds do result in different life experiences. You might have even noticed that that's the whole point o…

I reject that premise. It's completely fine to point out societal norms. Neither were particularly offensive. But assuming a Japanese child will have patience where an American will not is the same weird thought that leads to weird guys wanting Japanese wives for 'obedience.' I'm not at all against pointing out or even flexing cultural differences, but they don't matter at all when raising a child(other than of cours…

> I have a math brain.

Where do you think that math brain came from?

There are only three factors that could really influence it:

1. The way you were raised.

2. Your genes.

3. Some metaphysical explanation.

I'm going to set #3 aside for a bit because there's no way to test that hypothesis. That leaves the way you were raised and genes.

What correlates with the way you were raised? Culture. Your parents' culture is tightly correlated with the way they raised you, and when speaking about groups and averages it's fair to say that in general affects outcomes. So if you take this explanation, TFA is not wrong to say that culture would affect outcomes.

What correlates with your genes? Your ancestry, which is (imperfectly) correlated with race. So if you take this explanation, OP would not have been wrong to say that on average race would affect outcomes. (That said, I don't think they actually do—they strictly mention culture!)

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#223

Post by jmyeet » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:54 PM UTC

> Kids crave predictability.

I cannot overstate the importance of this. This particularly affects neurodivergent people. The article also (correctly) mentions how socioeconomic status plays a role here.

Food insecurity erodes psychological safety. Housing insecurity erodes psychological safety. Having to do unpredictable and extra jobs just to make ends meet such that a parent has unpredictable availability hurts psychological safety. Having to break promises because of circumstances hurts psychological safety and this is just way more likely if you're struggling, despite your best intent.

It's worth ruminating on this when you start to understand how every aspect of society is designed to extract value from you at every possible moment. Third and fourth jobs, medical debt forcing you to work, student debt, mortgage debt, high rent prices.

Yet the thirst for ever-increasing profits is unquenchable. Part of the reason that people such as myself rail against this system and the society we've built around work is how damaging it is to society as a whole.

South Korea is really the end stage of this pipeline, where birth rates are around ~0.71 children per woman as there are so many disincentives to have children and, for that child to have a good life, everything gets invested into their education. The pressure is intense such that the teen suicide rate is huge. And this birth rate is so low that 3 generations of this will decrease the population by 90%.

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#224

Post by dennis_jeeves2 » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:54 PM UTC

t43562 wrote: post #67

I know this comment invites disaster but.....what is heaven other than the ultimate delayed gratification? i.e. don't worry about your miserable life as a serf toiling for the lord of the manor 6 days a week because if you're good now you'll be happy after you die. You can imagine the aristocracy laughing to themselves about that idea. Nowadays we get told to save money...but I'm from Zimbabwe where saving money was…

>I know this comment invites disaster but.....what is heaven other than the ultimate delayed gratification? i.e. don't worry about your miserable life as a serf toiling for the lord of the manor 6 days a week because if you're good now you'll be happy after you die. You can imagine the aristocracy laughing to themselves about that idea.

You are correct. This is the delusion that peasants feeds their kids so that life appears to be worth living. In the west it's the similar rigmarole of mortgages, debt, divorce, unstable jobs etc that their parents did. Not saying that there is no value to discipline, but it has to be intelligently applied ( not easy) else you will loose. For example saving for a house (vs taking a large mortgage) will not do you good if the inflation is high.

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#225

Post by JasserInicide » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:55 PM UTC

mapt wrote: post #167

silisili wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You reject that peoples personalities are shaped by their environment No, I reject that you can tell anything meaningful about the environment by country. Or even state. Or even neighborhood! Japan itself could fit into the US 25 times by area. Are kids raised in SF the same as those raised in Alabama? Or NY vs Phoenix? It'd be insane to make any generalities about a country so large and diverse, IMO. Heck, kids in…

It has become fashionable among Very Online people who obsess about social justice to loudly reject generalizations. They took the very reasonable "you're not allowed to talk about black people liking watermelons" and applied it to every statement about every minority, disadvantaged or not, ethnically defined or not, whether offense was taken or not. Generalization was relabelled a microaggression, and avoiding them…

Great post. The increasingly insane purity tests that the far left levy upon others they deign as less woke (in the original sense of the word) has gotten completely out of hand. Especially here on HN. Too many times I've seen normal discussion happen and then someone comes along with "Um excuse me can you not use that term because [3 paragraphs of nonsense when one time one person somewhere took offense to said term]". It feels paralyzing. People can't have discussions anymore, especially online. There's always 20 caveats you have to worry about.

Personally I blame autism for much of it but that's another can of worms.

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#226

Post by nkurz » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:55 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #77

qingcharles wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder how many of the sayings I inherited from my father he inherited from my grandfather that died before I was born. It's like a kind of genetic memory.

I have a ton myself that my Dad would say but couldn't explain, so I don't use them as much. Two notable examples... 'What do you want, a Dewey button?' as a sarcastic way of saying 'who cares.' He didn't know why. Google says it's probably related to Thomas Dewey. 'Kitty bar the door.' An expression to mean he was going to go all out. He didn't know who kitty was or why he said it. I still have no idea its real etym…

> 'Kitty bar the door.'

It looks like Katy or Katie are the more common spellings in the Southern US, although Kitty seems to the standard when talking about hockey. The origin is disputed: https://worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-kat1.htm

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#227

Post by fastball » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:56 PM UTC

guilamu wrote: post #193

silisili wrote: post #33

I feel like this article is good, on the verge of great, then makes cultural comments that invalidate the point trying to be made for no real reason. Like the race or location of the parent determines their childhood? The rest is spot on. I became a parent before I was ready, and man, they are little sponges. They learn everything you do, everything you say, embarrassingly so. My 5 year old would lay on the couch to…

The race or location of the parent absolutely determines their childhood. This has been studied for decades, and it's called Practice theory. It emerged in the late 20th century and was first outlined in the work of the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu [1]. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_theory

That seems to be more about culture, which is separate from race or location.

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#228

Post by potato3732842 » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 1:56 PM UTC

noisy_boy wrote: post #207

potato3732842 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ok - pick any conservative country (say India or Indonesia). Now tell me that the chances of an average Indonesian woman wearing a bikini to a beach (pretty normal in most Western countries) is same as an average French woman? The strongest predictor for both the French and the Indonesian is almost certainly going to be the individuals physique and and the second is probably going to be the country and prevailing cu…

> The strongest predictor for both the French and the Indonesian is almost certainly going to be the individuals physique I take it that you have either never been to a beach or the one you have been to is only open to athletes and supermodels. > the second is probably going to be the country and prevailing culture in which the beach is located (i.e. what everyone else is wearing) So you haven't had the chance of see…

>I take it that you have either never been to a beach or the one you have been to is only open to athletes and supermodels.

Have you been to the beach in the last 10yr. All manner of 1-pc swimsuits are arguably the default style for women.

>So you haven't had the chance of seeing Indonesian woman wearing full headgear and clothes covering their body having fun at a beach far away from Indonesia? Not joking, they were having a genuinely good time - from direct experience.

My mistake, I mixed up Indonesia and the Phillipines in my mind. No surprise muslim women will not be wearing bikinis. But the Westerners will also be far more modest in a setting where that is the prevailing default so....

>The world is much bigger and has far greater variety of people, customs and norms than you can imagine.

If looking down one's nose like that is what it takes to be cultured I'm glad I'm not.

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#229

Post by lolinder » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:00 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #33

I feel like this article is good, on the verge of great, then makes cultural comments that invalidate the point trying to be made for no real reason. Like the race or location of the parent determines their childhood? The rest is spot on. I became a parent before I was ready, and man, they are little sponges. They learn everything you do, everything you say, embarrassingly so. My 5 year old would lay on the couch to…

I'm going to quote the paragraph you're responding to so that those just reading the comments can see what it actually says:

> The marshmallow test also doesn’t account for cultural differences. In some cultures, waiting is baked into daily life. Think about Japan, where kids are often taught to wait quietly for meals or gifts. Compare that to the US, where instant gratification is practically a way of life. These cultural norms shape how kids approach situations like the marshmallow test. It’s not just about personality; it’s about the world they live in.

That's it. That's the entire quote about the effect of culture.

I see no mention of race or location—I see an argument that "the world they live in" affects children's ability to wait, and that culture is an important aspect of the world that kids live in.

Given that this is the actual text you're responding to, I'm not actually sure you disagree with them, because you go on to point out that smartphones are a dangerous component of modern culture.

Re: Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

#230

Post by mannykannot » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:04 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #33

I feel like this article is good, on the verge of great, then makes cultural comments that invalidate the point trying to be made for no real reason. Like the race or location of the parent determines their childhood? The rest is spot on. I became a parent before I was ready, and man, they are little sponges. They learn everything you do, everything you say, embarrassingly so. My 5 year old would lay on the couch to…

Race is not mentioned in the article. Ironically, you are doing the very thing, here, which you claim spoils it.

The mention of culture is not out of place in the article, as the marshmallow test (which features quite prominently in it, including in its actual title) does have different outcomes in different cultures, and, in addition, it is hardly controversial to suppose that the way children are brought up is an important factor in establishing and maintaining a culture's cohesion.