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Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

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Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#11

Post by DC-3 »

sampton wrote: post #4
triyambakam wrote: post #3

Can someone smarter than me explain how it's even possible to use DNA to identify the origin of a language, given that e.g. if this were tried with a language like German (or maybe any Western European language) the puzzle would look very confusing and is not DNA based.

Writings on artifacts and burial practices associated with DNA fragments found at the burial sites.

This study is about prehistoric Steppe peoples, there are no Indo-European inscriptions from this time period nor would there be any until several millennia after this time.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#12

Post by stult »

> It finds evidence that the culture may have taken root somewhere near the present-day small town of Mykhailivka in the southern part of Ukraine.

As anyone following the war in Ukraine closely has long since realized, village names alone are not very useful for identifying where something is in Ukraine. There are just too many places with the same names. e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykhailivka

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#13

Post by dsign »

Only 6500 years? That's incredibly recent for such an influential language. For comparison, Sargon of Akkad died only 4000 years ago, and there are written records from him. True, he didn't speak Indo-European, but Afroasiatic/Akkadian, and that was the language on those cuneiform tablets the researchers used for reference.

On a tangent, with the advent of AI and the final decades of our species, we should make more clay tablets to leave lying around...

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#14

Post by teleforce »

DC-3 wrote: post #11
sampton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writings on artifacts and burial practices associated with DNA fragments found at the burial sites.

This study is about prehistoric Steppe peoples, there are no Indo-European inscriptions from this time period nor would there be any until several millennia after this time.

> there are no Indo-European inscriptions from this time period nor would there be any until several millennia after this time

That's a very negative presumptions.

How about the oldest attestation of Indo-European language or the long extinct language Hittite who once lived in Bronze age Anatolian Steppe? The language is attested in cuneiform, in records dating from the 17th to the 13th centuries BCE.

Hittite people created an empire centred on Hattusa, and also around northern Levant and Upper Mesopotamia [1].

[1] Hittite language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#15

Post by anon291 »

teleforce wrote: post #9

Related HN posts [1], [2]. Fun facts, the most common words of Indo-European Family are surprisingly very similar across Sanskrit (S) English (E) German (G) [3]. Pitara (S) Father (E) Vater (G) Matara (S) Mother (E) Mutter (G) Bhratara (S) Brother (E) Bruder (G) Duhitar (S) Daughter (E) Tochter (G) [1] New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages (147 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=369…

Lots of verbs too.

For example, 'to be' - French 'etre' (circumflex over the e indicates old 's' after the e), Marathi 'asane' (pronounced esnay)

'to go', German gehen, Marathi jana (when conjugated the j becomes hard)

'to give', french 'donner', Hindi 'danaa' (pronounced similarly)

'to mix', french 'melanger', Hind 'melaanaa'

Other non-obvious ones:

Vedas and Wisdom / Wit. Alternatively, Latin video (to see)

Dyaus-pitar and Jupiter, Zeus-pater

'that' in English is 'que' (that/what) in french and 'kya' (for what) or 'ki' (for that) in Hindi (pronounced similarly to French 'que').

English burden or 'to bear' and Hindi bhar (burden)

English 'ignite', Latin 'ignis' and Indic 'agni' (fire)

'Raja' and 'regal' or 'royal'

'Dental' and Hindi 'dant' (tooth)

Greek 'polis' and Indic 'pore' / 'pur' / 'puram' (the 'r' is pronounced like a soft l)

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#16

Post by teleforce »

dsign wrote: post #13

Only 6500 years? That's incredibly recent for such an influential language. For comparison, Sargon of Akkad died only 4000 years ago, and there are written records from him. True, he didn't speak Indo-European, but Afroasiatic/Akkadian, and that was the language on those cuneiform tablets the researchers used for reference. On a tangent, with the advent of AI and the final decades of our species, we should make more…

The oldest attestation of Indo-European language is now the long extinct language Hittite who used to live in Bronze Age Anatolian Steppe. The language is attested in cuneiform, in records dating from the 17th to the 13th centuries BCE.

Hittite people created an empire centred on Hattusa, and also around northern Levant and Upper Mesopotamia.

> On a tangent, with the advent of AI and the final decades of our species, we should make more clay tablets to leave lying around

The irony is that even with AI we have yet to decode Indus script perhaps due to the lack of the equivalent of Rosetta Stone [1]. I think there's a Nobel prize waiting for those who can decipher the Indus script with AI or not [2].

[1] Rosetta Stone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone

[2] Indus script:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#18

Post by fvvybfbfbyg »

dsign wrote: post #13

Only 6500 years? That's incredibly recent for such an influential language. For comparison, Sargon of Akkad died only 4000 years ago, and there are written records from him. True, he didn't speak Indo-European, but Afroasiatic/Akkadian, and that was the language on those cuneiform tablets the researchers used for reference. On a tangent, with the advent of AI and the final decades of our species, we should make more…

English is what? ~600-800 years old? Most other major Western European languages only developed over the past ~2000 years or so.

It’s not like Porto Indo-European developed out of nothing. It was related to other languages that just didn’t survive and happens to be the most recent (hypothesized) common ancestor of all other Indo-European languages)

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#19

Post by empath75 »

teleforce wrote: post #16
dsign wrote: post #13

Only 6500 years? That's incredibly recent for such an influential language. For comparison, Sargon of Akkad died only 4000 years ago, and there are written records from him. True, he didn't speak Indo-European, but Afroasiatic/Akkadian, and that was the language on those cuneiform tablets the researchers used for reference. On a tangent, with the advent of AI and the final decades of our species, we should make more…

The oldest attestation of Indo-European language is now the long extinct language Hittite who used to live in Bronze Age Anatolian Steppe. The language is attested in cuneiform, in records dating from the 17th to the 13th centuries BCE. Hittite people created an empire centred on Hattusa, and also around northern Levant and Upper Mesopotamia. > On a tangent, with the advent of AI and the final decades of our species,…

I believe the article is saying that the Hittite branch split off early from the rest of the tree, and the Yamnaya are the ones that spread it around the world -- the Hittite branch ended up being a dead end.

Re: Ancient-DNA study identifies originators of Indo-European language family

#20

Post by fvvybfbfbyg »

teleforce wrote: post #14
DC-3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This study is about prehistoric Steppe peoples, there are no Indo-European inscriptions from this time period nor would there be any until several millennia after this time.

> there are no Indo-European inscriptions from this time period nor would there be any until several millennia after this time That's a very negative presumptions. How about the oldest attestation of Indo-European language or the long extinct language Hittite who once lived in Bronze age Anatolian Steppe? The language is attested in cuneiform, in records dating from the 17th to the 13th centuries BCE. Hittite people…

So? What about the Hittites? There is a slight gap between 1700 BC and 4500 BC.
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