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Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

kevin.burke.dev

381–390 of 411 posts

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just sounds like a mismanaged city? Like obviously it might go wrong as well, just like how a private company might not have the sharpest knives.

Usually, for a private company, there is a forcing function (profit and loss) that incentivizes the management to ensure the knives are at least functional. Public employment doesn't have the same forcing function, and runs the risk of turning into a jobs program for the otherwise unemployable or a patronage network. Of course, none of this is exclusive to one or the other.

Utility companies operate in a semi-monopolistic way, don’t aren’t subject to the same forcing function companies in more competitive industries are.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#382

Austin Energy pays the city 115 million every year. Austin Energy earns no profits and pays no federal income taxes. All revenues benefit the customers of Austin Energy and the residents of the City of Austin. The primary financial benefit to the City of Austin is Austin Energy’s transfer to the General Fund, which is set by policy and allocated by elected City Council members to municipal purposes such as fire and p…

The only city utility I've experienced better than Austin Energy is Chattanooga's Electric Power Board (which offers up to 20gb/s fiber to every single electricity customer in their jurisdiction, except some apartment complexes).

Inexpensive, reliable, and heavily litigated (just how I like my local utility).

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free markets are demonstrably better at servicing capital This premise is highly questionable. Certainly for competitive markets it's entirely false. Uncompetitive markets suffer largely the same failure mode as government bureaucracies, but it's not even clear that this is actually worse, because government bureaucracies are susceptible to not only charging bloated service fees for mediocre service, they can also…

If you find that premise highly questionable produce a cogent explanation for why real wages have been flat as a fucking strap for the last 40 years despite massive gains to GDP. Once you've cleared that hurdle your next task is justifying the current massively skewed (and worsening) income distribution in the US. Clear that bar and all that's left is justifying private equity eating everything from fast food franchi…

> If you find that premise highly questionable produce a cogent explanation for why real wages have been flat as a fucking strap for the last 40 years despite massive gains to GDP.

Cost disease induced by regulatory capture and a massive housing shortage induced by zoning regulations.

> Once you've cleared that hurdle your next task is justifying the current massively skewed (and worsening) income distribution in the US.

Poverty traps created by social assistance programs that put overlapping benefits phase outs on the lower middle class, causing them to incur oppressively high de facto marginal tax rates that in some cases exceed 100% of marginal income.

> Clear that bar and all that's left is justifying private equity eating everything from fast food franchises to the healthcare system.

This is regulatory capture again. Captured markets consolidate and then corporate raiders notice that the incumbents have a monopoly but aren't screwing their customers quite as hard as a monopolist can do. The underlying cause is government regulations insulating the incumbents from competition; private equity are the maggots that come to eat the corpse once the market is already dead.

Notice how there was "capitalism" in the 1950s but lower levels of corporate raiders or income inequality etc. So then you might wonder what has changed between then and now, and an interesting proxy is the number of pages in the US Code and Code of Federal Regulations.

> We have the economic system we have. We call it capitalism.

If you judge an economic system by what people call it, we called the thing that happened in 20th century Russia "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" and the thing that happened in WWII Germany "National Socialism" and by this logic we shouldn't attempt anything called "Socialism" ever again.

But if socialism is the thing where you put the government in charge of the economy and capitalism is the thing where you limit the government from interfering with the market then socialism is the thing we've actually tried. How are you going to put e.g. the US healthcare system on "free markets" when it's the most regulated market in the US?

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#384
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that if something may not fail you can only pretend to privatize. You only privatize the profit during the good times. Our railroads paid a nice 300m in divident every year then corona came, people were told to stay home. You can guess who had to pay for the lack of travelers. The most silly are ISP's. The prices in each country depend on how much people can pay and what you get for it is rng

> I would argue that if something may not fail you can only pretend to privatize. You only privatize the profit during the good times. You can straightforwardly privatize things that can't be allowed to fail. Power generation is a decent example: If you have a hundred independent generating companies that all sell into a live auction market, they have to compete with each other which keeps prices down and the market…

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Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you find that premise highly questionable produce a cogent explanation for why real wages have been flat as a fucking strap for the last 40 years despite massive gains to GDP. Once you've cleared that hurdle your next task is justifying the current massively skewed (and worsening) income distribution in the US. Clear that bar and all that's left is justifying private equity eating everything from fast food franchi…

> If you find that premise highly questionable produce a cogent explanation for why real wages have been flat as a fucking strap for the last 40 years despite massive gains to GDP. Cost disease induced by regulatory capture and a massive housing shortage induced by zoning regulations. > Once you've cleared that hurdle your next task is justifying the current massively skewed (and worsening) income distribution in the…

> Cost disease induced by regulatory capture and a massive housing shortage induced by zoning regulations.

Ish. While regulatory capture is at the heart of most of the truly ass outcomes attributable to capitalism it's comical that an attempt would be made to assert less government oversight would in some way be beneficial. What, are we pretending the last several decades of blissfully ignored potential anti-trust cases, questionable mergers, etc. aren't the direct result of captured legislators being told to just sit on their hands?

Incidentally the "housing crisis" has nothing to do with zoning. Offshoring manufacturing and permitting AG conglomerates to bankrupt the majority of family farmers has resulted in rural communities being stripped of economic opportunities which caused a flood of economic refugees into high cost residential markets. Proof: pundits screech about a lack of affordable housing when ~8 million units sit unoccupied, many outright abandoned. In Other News: when zoning changes are made to permit the kind of multi-story mixed use structures that are hyped as a solution to the housing crisis what happens is they get built, the local market gets an influx of condos that nobody who lives in the area can afford and nearby housing increases in cost (a net reduction in affordable housing), literally the exact opposite of the effects advertised.

> How are you going to put e.g. the US healthcare system on "free markets" when it's the most regulated market in the US?

Most regulated...the what now? Private equity firms and healthcare megaconglomerates (oh I'm looking at you Duke Health) that are sweeping up private practices and hospitals all over the country. Without exception this leads to measurable decline in quality of care, and is the leading cause of rural hospital closure nationwide. This phenomenon is also driving up the cost of performing clinical trials as these outfits are savvy enough to intentionally target practices that perform trials. The resulting increase in fees to run a clinical trial are so steep they trigger fraud warnings in industry benchmarking software. Anyway, given we're the only industrialized nation who's healthcare system isn't entirely controlled by the government this claim seems pretty rich. One of several ironies here being freeish marketish healthcare produces some of the worst healthcare outcomes of any industrialized nation, at four times the cost. Wheee.

Put another way yeah the government is culpable only in the sense they decided to not actually govern, thus letting The Market run rampant.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuke had no future in Germany. The plants haven't had security maintenance in many years because it all was relaxed due to the pending shutdown, the plants were many decades old, we don't have a place to store spent fuel (unlike Americans who have ample desert space where no one is ever gonna be bothered), new fuel comes to a shocking amount from Russia, constructing new plants takes >>10 years and many billions of e…

The nukes not having a future in Germany is completely down to the Green Party and their pathological obsession with killing nuclear power. They organized and succeeded. Where was the opposition? Is the entire German environmental movement beholden to the Green Party?

Germans never really liked nuclear power from the start, all NPPs drew massive local opposition that was by far not just the back-then new Green Party.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#387
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quebec is 4x as large as California, has far more forested land, and is often very dry in late summer. It also has massive snowstorms, ice storms, which bring down vegetation, and ranges from -40F up to 100F yearly, depending. We can nitpick on specifics, but by no means is California more rural, or more forested. Quebec is also far less populous, and has a far more hostile environment. Hydro Quebec does well, becaus…

> Quebec is also far less populous Isn't this my point? It is practical to punch transmission lines through any place. It is much more difficult, risky, and costly to maintain a fractal distribution network to individual customers in certain places due to geography and climate. If you parachute randomly into Quebec you'd be walking for a month before you met anyone. Same is not true in California.

Not really.

Less populous can also mean more rural, and that was my point.

You talk about houses in the middle of no-where, and Quebec has that in spades. And it's not expensive, it doesn't cost, it's revenue generating, and not part of the problem.

If Quebec can do it, generate massive profits, and have mega-low rates, and do rural far better than California, then "rural" isn't the issue.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, large scandals can have an aftereffect that lasts for decades. Berlin for example had a massive bank collapse in 2001 under the Conservative government that ended up placing the state of Berlin into billions of euros worth of debt and financial risk. The succeeding SD/Left/Green triplet coalitions had to fire-sell off many state-held assets like the water utility (that ended up a disaster on its own [2]…

This sounds like the state of the entire UK

Much worse. I am really sick of British people (those who have not lived abroad or had really experience of other countries) thinking the UK is uniquely bad. Its in fact better than than most places in most ways. Why do you think people want to immigrate here (including lots of highly skilled people who can pick where they live, and lots of people from other rich countries)? Why do you think so many of us with dual nationality who can just go somewhere else as a right live (ship our stuff and get on plane, whenever we like) here?

We have not had anything on the scale of what the GP describes of a city going billions into debt - even Birmingham is orders of magnitude less bad.

The government sold assets, but not at fire sale prices. I do not think selling utilities was a great idea, but its not as bad as either what GP describes, nor the "small town in Michigan" example at the top of this thread (when did you last experience a blackout in the UK?).

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#389
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They add up. Private plane: https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/executives-at-pg-e-h... You hire your buddy’s company as a consultant or contractor, too. At a sweet rate.

>to an extent that would materially affect the balance sheet?

I'm not sure how to explain to you that the expenses on the balance sheet are made up of a lot of small individual things.

Re: Cities can cost effectively start their own utilities

#390
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in a few dozen cities (most very, very rural) in the US, and The Bay has, by far, the worst electricity out of any of them. We have longer outages as a planned practice than I'd have from ice storms knocking down half the forest or waves partially flooding the town. As an outside observer, the fact that PG&E can lie to the state and request money for maintenance, subsequently sending that money to sharehol…

Don't forget SDG&E/Sempra. San Diego locals hate them with a passion. It is crazy that an area with such abundant solar generation and environmental concerns should have such expensive power.

Some areas served by SDG&E have community owned power generation and SDG&E handles delivery. The price SDG&E charges for delivery is usually 30% more than generation costs.

Power bills increased after switching to community generated power.

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