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Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

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Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#51

Why would the author believe 600+ applicants for a semi-skilled entry-level job posting in NYC is an unusual number? How does that number compare to a similar job posting in London, Tokyo or Shanghai? This experiment is silly, contrived and unscientific. The data is without context, and essentially meaningless. Also, while I wouldn't exactly call it unethical to do something like this - it is dishonest, and something…

I'm not sure what sort of context you were looking for. The author certainly explains the methodology well.

As for whether it's scientific, it strikes me as having many similarities to a paper "Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination." That paper was authored by two of the most respected academic economists, and it was published in the top economics journal.

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#52
post #39

I attempted something similar during my last year of college. I made a posting at my closest large city, detailing my ideal job. I also laid out what seemed to be good requirements that I would have satisfied for the position. I was astounded by the results. I quickly had to remove the ad, too. The messages were heart wrenching to read. One man was unemployed after being discharged from the military. Another man had…

> I had broad competition Maybe it's mostly the bottom 10% who are permanently unemployed / between jobs, no education.

Not only that, but also relying on job ads.

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#53
post #51

Why would the author believe 600+ applicants for a semi-skilled entry-level job posting in NYC is an unusual number? How does that number compare to a similar job posting in London, Tokyo or Shanghai? This experiment is silly, contrived and unscientific. The data is without context, and essentially meaningless. Also, while I wouldn't exactly call it unethical to do something like this - it is dishonest, and something…

I'm not sure what sort of context you were looking for. The author certainly explains the methodology well. As for whether it's scientific, it strikes me as having many similarities to a paper "Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination." That paper was authored by two of the most respected academic economists, and it was published in the top economics…

Yes, the methodology is well-explained. My reaction to this article can be summed up with, "“A lot of résumés” is an egregious understatement.".

Why are 653 responses for an unskilled job with no experience requirements in a metro area of 20 million people 'a lot'? Where is the context? How does that number compare to other metro areas? To other times in history? To the history of NYC? Would that have been 'a lot' 20 years ago? How about during the Great Depression?

I'll check out the study you cited.

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#54

This is interesting and well written. Find yourself a grad student in Math and you've got your job. I want more articles of a "pop math" variety exploring the numbers of everyday life. Not only are they interesting and engaging, these types of stories provide the groundwork for helping "us" (entrepreneurs) know what industries we should be attacking.

> Find yourself a grad student in Math and you've got your job.

Sorry, what do you mean by that?

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#55
I'm wonder what the ratio of job postings to job applicants is.

If there are 600 applications per listing, and each applicant sends 50 applications, then there are 12 times as many applicants as listings.

Do the 600 and 50 numbers seem about right?

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#56
An interesting experiment (for a company that actually has a job and is not leading people on) would be to distinguish a job posting that says

"Hiring for this position will be based in large part on a work-sample test during a half day at our office"

versus

"Previous experience . . . preferred, but will train the right candidate."

We can tell that the United States economy is in recession (as is the case in many other countries with Hacker News participants) because we keep seeing new stories submitted every day or so about the hiring procedures of companies, with multiple comments. In a long FAQ post I've posted recently

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768

here on Hacker News, based on many helpful comments from other participants, I summarize a LOT of research on company hiring procedures. If you want to hire someone good in the United States, make a work-sample test part of your hiring procedure. Work-sample tests are much better than biographical reviews of resumes for finding good workers. If you want to get a good job in a well managed company, develop the skills to get past a realistic work-sample test for the position you seek. Many more details appear in the FAQ,

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4270768

which is quite long but well worth a read if you are looking for a job or if you are a business manager trying to hire someone who will do a good job.

P.S. I still hear of young people who are gaining full-time, full-benefits jobs in today's economy. In the usual case, they are getting those jobs by showing what they can actually do as part of the hiring process, degree or no degree.

After edit: I recently read the VERY interesting book The Folly of Fools: The Logic of Deceit and Self-Deception in Human Life

http://www.amazon.com/Folly-Fools-Logic-Deceit-Self-Deceptio...

(I wonder if this book has been discussed here on HN yet?) and that reminded me of one of the main reasons that hiring by screening resumes is demonstrably less effective than hiring by giving work sample tests: many people lie on their resumes. The author of the interesting submitted blog post was of course posting a fake job ad, and several comments here on HN point out that many job ads may just be fronts for recruiters rather than postings by actual employers. Participants here gave examples (NUMEROUS examples) of job ads getting responses that don't appear at all to fit the job, but an employer also has to worry about "false positives," applicants who look like they fit the job but who are inflating their educational credentials or multiplying their years of actual work experience. The only way to know what an applicant can do is to test. Perhaps announcing up front that the hiring process includes actual testing of job-related skills MAY screen out some of the poseurs from even sending in their fake resumes (although the many shotgun applicants who don't even read the job ad closely will still be sending resumes all over the place only to waste the time of anyone who receives the resumes).

One way the author of the blog post could have demonstrated statistical acumen is by labeling his data presentations "Self-Reported Experience" rather than "True Experience" and "Self-Reported Credentials" rather than "Education." He has NO idea what the actual educational credentials or work experience (or other aspects of biography) of any of his applicants really are. He would have been aware of this point if he had taken a good statistics course in college, but alas good statistics classes are very rare in the United States.

http://statland.org/MAAFIXED.PDF

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#57
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what sort of context you were looking for. The author certainly explains the methodology well. As for whether it's scientific, it strikes me as having many similarities to a paper "Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination." That paper was authored by two of the most respected academic economists, and it was published in the top economics…

Yes, the methodology is well-explained. My reaction to this article can be summed up with, "“A lot of résumés” is an egregious understatement.". Why are 653 responses for an unskilled job with no experience requirements in a metro area of 20 million people 'a lot'? Where is the context? How does that number compare to other metro areas? To other times in history? To the history of NYC? Would that have been 'a lot' 20…

I see. I think many of us had an (uninformed) expectation that he would receive fewer resumes... I certainly didn't expect so many resumes with 5+ years of experience.

I agree that it lacks context for comparison to other places/times. But for people who shared my expectations coming (which I suspect was a lot of people), this was still informative.

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#58
post #37

I attempted something similar during my last year of college. I made a posting at my closest large city, detailing my ideal job. I also laid out what seemed to be good requirements that I would have satisfied for the position. I was astounded by the results. I quickly had to remove the ad, too. The messages were heart wrenching to read. One man was unemployed after being discharged from the military. Another man had…

> Then I realized it did. What did it mean?

Something. He says it right there.

Re: Get A Job: The Craigslist Experiment

#60
post #28

There are not enough jobs. The 'economic' model is broken, and the 'economy' is being strangled. But its worse than that. The very concept of a job doesn't even really qualify as civilized.

Pretty much agreed. The notion that there will or must exist demand for labor corresponding to every individual's basic needs has never actually been proven. The statement is then left as a should statement, but why should we force our society into the mold of a bizarre reverse-moralization?

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I have to ask - how do you ration goods and services in an economy except for some kind of currency? And how do you propose we award people said currency besides some direct or indirect correlation with their work output?

It seems likely to me that technology will continue to create a gap between the supply of workers and the demand for those workers, but figuring out how to deal with the social and economic implications of that seems like a difficult task.

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